08-17-2018, 06:40 PM | #81 | |||
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pennsylvania
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Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Mark VII
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All those units tied up attacking their own infrastructure to deny an approaching enemy the use of their road network sounds like a fun battle to me. But that would only be in a Scenario if the MARK7 were attacking, which it seems it would be better suited as a defensive unit in it's own field using it's own road network...of QuickSet BPC. Quote:
Which just got me thinking...MBs and SBs can be Emplaced Weapons in a Fortification. Are they operated by a OGRE AI or manned? I'm thinking they would be manned. Which raises the question again, would MB and SB weapons be the same stats if they are equipped on an OGRE or Emplaced? This can only mean yes. There is no difference other than the OGRE AI on a OGRE is replacing the manned portion of the Emplaced OGRE weapons. Which suggests a Howitzer is the same. Maybe the extra range (if allowed) of the Howitzer is saying it's the OGRE AI that gives it this better range. It's the same Howitzer as the non-OGRE sort, just the OGRE is more effective at using it. maybe Range 8 + 2 = Range 10. Quote:
CMs are able to be shot down and that chance increases the more weapons can be used against them. That's the question. Where and when are CMs most effectively used to get the most out of the cost spent to use them. Will a equal number be more or less effective vs a MARK7 or against an equivalent value of other units? Is there a better chance a MARK7 can shoot them down because it's a single target or is there a better chance an equivalent value of other units can? I'm thinking the MARK7 has the advantage here because the CMs are forced to target a single target and all the weapons on the MARK7 attack to defend whereas an equivalent value of other units is generally more targets spread out, which reduces ranges to optimally make attacks against the incoming CMs. This is also not considering if the MARK7 has Anti-CM jamming technology which would make it even more viable. Agreed. It's always fun to explore the concept though.
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"So I stood my ground...my only hope to die as I had always lived-fighting" John Carter of Mars Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 08-17-2018 at 07:38 PM. |
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08-17-2018, 07:36 PM | #82 | |||||
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pennsylvania
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Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Mark VII
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Now, fast-forward to The Last War and lets see what we can come up with. Quote:
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Quickset BPC isn't magic. It's BPC reformulated to be used by Engineers to create roads made of BPC. Plenty of Tanks have been built that could not use bridges. That only becomes an issue if said tank needs to use them. If used in it's defensive role, the MARK7 would not care to even calculate them. Quote:
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Which means your units are all also easily within the MARK7s weapon ranges as well. Crunch and Boom! As to the Howitzers, not if the MARK7 has modified Howitzers that have longer range...which it does. :)
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"So I stood my ground...my only hope to die as I had always lived-fighting" John Carter of Mars Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 08-17-2018 at 07:39 PM. |
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08-17-2018, 08:07 PM | #83 | ||
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
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Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Mark VII
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Last edited by Mack_JB; 08-17-2018 at 08:43 PM. |
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08-17-2018, 08:29 PM | #84 |
Ogre Line Editor
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Plainfield, IL
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Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Mark VII
I'm having a hard time accepting this idea. If you are pulling a new road material out of the air for the sole purpose of justifying a unit (with unrealistic stats, at that), that's a big red flag that your unit is broken. If it can't stand on its own, you need to go back to the drawing board.
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GranitePenguin Ogre Line Editor |
08-17-2018, 08:45 PM | #85 |
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
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Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Mark VII
The synthetic formulations were already known, they just weren't needed until there wasn't a ready supply of natural oil. By the same token, they were also using wood gas generators to supply fuel to almost everything else though. That's a major step backwards in terms of the grinding effects of an on-going war.
Last edited by Mack_JB; 08-17-2018 at 09:54 PM. |
08-17-2018, 08:46 PM | #86 |
Join Date: May 2007
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Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Mark VII
I am not going to participate in this discussion any longer. Munchkin is a fine card game, but I have no interest in mixing it with Ogre.
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08-18-2018, 03:00 PM | #87 |
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pennsylvania
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Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Mark VII
It was suggested that a normal road would be damaged by a MARK7 moving on it. We could say, no, it wouldn't or we could say yes it would.
If it would, just say the normal road is auto-Xed when moved on by the MARK7. If it uses a bridge, I wouldn't say it takes damage from falling because it collapses the bridge as soon as it moves onto it basically never leaving the ground and thus would not be falling and taking damage. The QuickSet BPC (or whatever it may be called) road is simply something that could support the MARK7 or any OGRE for that matter as a road without it being damaged. This road I assume would only be built where the MARK7 would be defending and only as much as needed to compliment this defense. I don't consider the MARK7 to be broken just because I'm making stuff up to justify it's existence as a viable unit any more than the Crawler Transporter that was specifically designed to transport the Space Shuttle, ect on a special made Crawlerway road at the Kennedy Space Center. For example, at some point in the OGREverse, someone said they wanted to have a Howitzer that could move so they created the Mobile Howitzer. That should not mean the mobile platform is an indication that such a unit is some non-viable contrivance because it requires one. My take on all this is Combine's MARK7 is what it officially is and would say the reason it was never produced, or if it was it was rarely used because such a behemoth truly was not a viable unit as an attacker. That remains as it officially is. However, The Paneuropean Federation was primarily on the defensive and thus I would reason would have developed and fielded their own version and used it defensively to compliment their defense network. This is actually the unit I am kicking around here and it actually has never been mentioned or hinted at officially, making it the perfect unit to be introduced at some point without previous mention like other units have been. Anyway, as always the discussion is appreciated and enjoyed. I'm not wedded to any of my suggestions, just throwing them out here as I see them and kicking them around.
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"So I stood my ground...my only hope to die as I had always lived-fighting" John Carter of Mars Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 08-18-2018 at 03:36 PM. |
08-20-2018, 11:11 AM | #88 | ||
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Mark VII
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On the battlefield, you're already proposing to make up for the speed deficiency by adding special, longer-range weapons (that will be harder to resupply), and to include a road network always. Others have pointed out that two MKVs are generally a better choice at the tactical level of a game of Ogre. (Further, if the MKVII is so big that it damages roads it will eventually become a tactical liability for other units just by driving around.) This disadvantage in speed is multiplied further at the strategic level. This beast cannot react as fast as a pair of MkVs, and cannot be in two places at once. I could see a solid use for an M3 MkVII as an ultimate monster unit. I don't see a way to justify an M2 at either a tactical or strategic level. Maybe it could work as a landing craft or the like - run it up on a beach as a surprise before the missiles can react, to make a beachhead. How would it compete with the MkVs or MkVI in that role? Last edited by dwalend; 08-28-2018 at 06:20 AM. |
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08-27-2018, 06:04 AM | #89 | |
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Cheltenham, PA
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Re: Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Mark VII
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And while I totally agree with keeping the Mk VII strictly theoretical, I do enjoy at least occasionally revisiting the discussion, if only to reinforce that decision... :)
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Joshua Megerman, SJGames MIB #5273 - Ogre AI Testing Division |
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