Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Mark VII

[CON_Troll]

I'd have to agree that from a player's POV, the MK VII would simply be too slow and therefore make games drawn out and more tedious/predictable. From a future-historical point of view, it might appear in canon as a prototype that was deployed for testing, but never actually made it to the battlefield before the Manilla Accords were signed.

Now, in the Factory States era, it might be possible to design a scenario where a factory state (which had the prototype templates) actually built a MK VII to supplement it's more conventional units. One rationalization for this might be that the factory state in question might have large factory complexes, but less (or even no!) -population for standard units. Thus, it would rely a lot on cybertanks (and regular units controlled like drones via Vulcans.) Given this disparity in units with surrounding states, it's possible that a MK VII as a "watchdog" would be feasible. This would probably be a huge scenario (rivaling "Body Blow") whereupon the attackers would have a limited time to deal with the MK VII before returning MK Vs, MK IVs, MK IIIs, Vulcans driving standard units, ect. -returned as reinforcements to make the attacker forces' lives far more interesting.

[Tim Kauffman]

A OGRE is reduced from a move of 4 or 3 to a move of 2 and while at a move of 2 it continues at a move of 2 until it is reduced to a move of 1 and finally 0...
Infantry moves 2...
Mobile Howitzers move 1...
Howitzers, Laser Turrets and Towers, Emplaced Weapons move 0...

A MARK7 would typically have escort units with it...

A MARK7 can use a road and gain a road bonus for movement...

A MARK6 does 6 dice Ramming damage against a OGRE and 7 dice against a Building, so we can assume a MARK7 does 7 dice Ramming damage against a OGRE and 8 dice against a Building...

By the way...I started this thread up again because of the link I found in OGRE MINIATURES:
The forum comment thread for the Mark VII is titled Ogre Minis Revision Issue: Mark VII, and is located at forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=37060.

Not to say that this link was intended to be a open invitation to continue the discussion here, but it certainly didn't help dissuade it any. ;)

[offsides]

I cannot see a Mark VII as being anything but a purely defensive unit. That is, you put a few of them around a large stationary target that you want to defend at all costs - the HWZs on the Mark VII give it extra range, it's got enough mobility to be able to adjust to attacking tactics, and by putting it near a high-value target that's (presumably) already heavily defended against cruise missiles (or even ICBMs) it doesn't automatically become the target of heavy nukes.

OTOH, a Mark VII on the march, even with (or especially with!) escorts, make it an obvious target for heavy bombardment. Not to mention the fact that other than the HWZ (which are more of a defensive weapon anyway), there's nothing that a Mk VII can do that 2 or more smaller Ogres can't do as well and faster, not to mention having more flexibility.

I totally get the love of bigger, Bigger, BIGGER!!! But even the Mk VI is pushing the limits of diminishing returns...

[Tim Kauffman]

Originally Posted by offsides

I cannot see a Mark VII as being anything but a purely defensive unit. That is, you put a few of them around a large stationary target that you want to defend at all costs - the HWZs on the Mark VII give it extra range, it's got enough mobility to be able to adjust to attacking tactics, and by putting it near a high-value target that's (presumably) already heavily defended against cruise missiles (or even ICBMs) it doesn't automatically become the target of heavy nukes.

I think it's primarily a defensive unit that would excel at reinforcing a defensive network of Fortifications, ect. It's actually what could be designated a "Mobile Fortress". Which makes them a even cooler unit to me.

Originally Posted by offsides

OTOH, a Mark VII on the march, even with (or especially with!) escorts, make it an obvious target for heavy bombardment.

...if Cruise Missiles are available for the Scenario. Maybe they are not.
If it has an escort, that would become interesting because you would then have to balance using them to protect it vs staying out of the way of CMs targeting the MARK7. The enemy would likewise have to best figure when and where to target the area.

Originally Posted by offsides

Not to mention the fact that other than the HWZ (which are more of a defensive weapon anyway), there's nothing that a Mk VII can do that 2 or more smaller Ogres can't do as well and faster, not to mention having more flexibility.

I think this is what would make them interesting to have a battle with. In this case, smaller OGREs would in a way be acting like GEVs trying to engage/disengage and leverage this cat and mouse attacking to best neutralize the slow moving behemoth. For example, it may prove useful to have one OGRE out of the MARK7 attack reach while the other is in and alternate them so they can't be attacked at the same time sometimes while also using any escort units if they are available.

Originally Posted by offsides

I totally get the love of bigger, Bigger, BIGGER!!! But even the Mk VI is pushing the limits of diminishing returns...

The MARK7 shoves the limit...that's what I like about it. A Mobile Fortress.

I would add a few things here that I think would make the unit more viable and used in Scenarios.

The MARK7 uses a road network whenever possible. This would give it a move of 3. Yes, it would also give other OGREs a move 4 or 5, but the MARK7 is no longer a Move 2 unit while using the road network.

This road network is made of a new QuickSet BPC material which is fabricated by Engineers. Such a road network is in my Scenario SHELL SHOCK and it's existence makes the whole concept plausible as something that might be happening in The Last War. It makes possible for defensive road networks to be used in terrain and in ways not previously possible. QuickSet BPC has a higher defense value than a normal road does, whatever it would be dialed in to be. So yes, you could blow the road to cut it, but it will be more difficult than a normal road, and take more time generally to X the road.

Weapons on the MARK7 gain the benefit of being OGRE operated which means Howitzers mounted on it would have a bonus to hit, whatever that would be. So, a Howitzer that can both move and has a better chance of hitting a target than a normal one sounds to me like a good reason to equip them on a OGRE.

The MARK7 is considered to be a Command Post. Maybe units within a certain range of it gain some modifier to attack or something.

I posted this over on ColBosch's Thread about Howitzers on OGREs. http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=153992

Essentially a Central Command vehicle and Mobile Fortress bristling with Howitzers, these secret super OGREs were used in tandem with the Paneuropean Defense network of LOGREs (Laser OGREs), OGRE AI Laser Tower Batteries, and Fortifications. Like other OGRE AI operated weapon systems unique to the Paneuropean line of battle, the Integrated Howitzers were also operated by the OGRE making them superior to non-OGRE operated ones.

The Bollwerk class OGREs were the largest ever produced even by Combine standards. The most famous was called the Zitadelle and was instrumental to the Federations defense network during the Battle Of A Thousand Suns...

[offsides]

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

...if Cruise Missiles are available for the Scenario. Maybe they are not.
If it has an escort, that would become interesting because you would then have to balance using them to protect it vs staying out of the way of CMs targeting the MARK7. The enemy would likewise have to best figure when and where to target the area.

The only way I see CM's not being tasked against a Mk VII is when it's literally first detected and the CM's haven't gotten into position yet. But within the first hour of detection, that Mk VII is going to be at the very least on the target list if not actively under CM attack.

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

The MARK7 uses a road network whenever possible. This would give it a move of 3. Yes, it would also give other OGREs a move 4 or 5, but the MARK7 is no longer a Move 2 unit while using the road network.

And taking out the road would be the #1 priority for any unit close enough to the Mark VII to be able to do so. Remember, a unit automatically cuts the road in its hex if it chooses to attack it, and faced with an advancing Mk VII taking out your own roads is infinitely move valuable than leaving them intact. Even if it ends up being a suicide mission for some.

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

Weapons on the MARK7 gain the benefit of being OGRE operated which means Howitzers mounted on it would have a bonus to hit, whatever that would be. So, a Howitzer that can both move and has a better chance of hitting a target than a normal one sounds to me like a good reason to equip them on a OGRE.

Ogre weapons do not get a bonus to hit simply because they're Ogre-controlled. The only bonuses they get are doubling in overruns and ignoring D results on the CRT. The only possible bonus I can see is giving a Mk VII's HWZ's a range of 7 or 8 vs. the 6 of a MHWz, as it can probably hold the bigger barrel and still move. Beyond that, I don't see a difference.

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

The MARK7 is considered to be a Command Post. Maybe units within a certain range of it gain some modifier to attack or something.

I have no issue with this, but generally the only effect a CP has is that the loss of one can have negative impact. However making them a CP only adds to the likelihood of targeting strategic assets at one, which doesn't really help your argument.

In the end, I think this is just a case of we have different philosophies and can agree to disagree. I enjoy seeing what you speculate on even if I don't think it's realistic, and if you come up with an interesting enough scenario using one, I might even play it. But in general, I think the Mk VII is relegated to the annals of historical Ogre debates about whether it was a worthwhile idea or not..

[Mack_JB]

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

The MARK7 uses a road network whenever possible. ...

This road network is made of a new QuickSet BPC material which is fabricated by Engineers. Such a road network is in my Scenario SHELL SHOCK and it's existence makes the whole concept plausible as something that might be happening in The Last War.

So since it's a machine too large for the game, just create a new system to enable it? That's classic mission creep.

Anything as large as a Mk. VII would crush any existing roads or bridges, and because it's "The Last War" there isn't time, manpower, resources or funds to create new road networks from some magic material. Many of the human populations are going to be having trouble just living, much less building highway networks for machines too large to even transport.

At that point, anything as large as a Mk. VII just gets three or four ICBMs planted on it, the end. It's name wouldn't be 'Bollwerk', it would be "Zielpunkt".

[Mack_JB]

I'm dredging this post up from ages ago:

Originally Posted by Glenn Jupp

For what it's worth, the Cobb Formula put the Mark VII at 334 points. Definitely strat-nuke bait. What kind of situation would be needed for a MkVII to actually pay for itself?

So in a classic "Smash the SP" game scenario, the defenders would get something like 55 AU and INF to fight with.

Has anyone ever tried that basic scenario to see how it worked?

[offsides]

Originally Posted by Mack_JB

I'm dredging this post up from ages ago:

So in a classic "Smash the SP" game scenario, the defenders would get something like 55 AU and INF to fight with.

Has anyone ever tried that basic scenario to see how it worked?

The closest I've come is playing Super CP with 2 Mk V's attacking vs 2 Mk IIIs and some armor defending. IIRC, the Mk Vs won handily, but partially due to some luck (good on their part, bad on the defenders) and partially due to a serious tactical error on the part of one of the defending players (IIRC each Ogre was 1 player, plus 1 for the rest of the defenders). But I would think that it would be easier to gang up on a single, slow Mk VII than it was against a pair of Mk Vs.

[Mack_JB]

With 55 AU available you could easily surround the Mk. VII and it would never escape ... with good dice it would be immobile quickly.

[ColBosch]

Originally Posted by Mack_JB

With 55 AU available you could easily surround the Mk. VII and it would never escape ... with good dice it would be immobile quickly.

Force it to Ram every turn, keep shooting the treads, let it get just within HWZ range and pound it to pieces.