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Old 10-25-2018, 03:54 AM   #1
Luke Bunyip
 
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Default [AtE] Black Powder vs Smokeless

I'm not after specifics on the production of either, but given I have no personal knowledge on the subject, I'm curious as to the order of magnitude of difficulty to make the later instead of the less optimal former. Is it technology limited, or the inclusion of additional substances?

Presume a relatively (setting wise) large population, with enough food and a secure interior, with access to limited intercontinental trade via sailing vessels.
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Old 10-25-2018, 04:43 AM   #2
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Default Re: [AtE] Black Powder vs Smokeless

There is a Pyramid article on this, but basically peasants make themselves enough black powder for hunting (there are Americans in the Apalatians who survived the Depression that way), smokeless powder requires a whole chemical industry with 1900-ish technology.

Remember that AtE is set in the wasteland not civilization (if such exists). In historical terms, its a 17th century game set among the Seven Nations or in Germany not in Mexico City or Paris, even if you hear tales of people who don't have to worry about being raped and murdered by the light of everything they own going up in flames.
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Old 10-25-2018, 04:46 AM   #3
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Default Re: [AtE] Black Powder vs Smokeless

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There is a Pyramid article on this...
Which one?
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Old 10-25-2018, 04:47 AM   #4
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Default Re: [AtE] Black Powder vs Smokeless

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Which one?
Search the archives for S.A. Fisher and After the End.
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Old 10-25-2018, 04:47 AM   #5
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Default Re: [AtE] Black Powder vs Smokeless

The requirements for black powder are described on p. 186 of High-Tech; quite a bit of development went into making better black powder from TL3 to late TL5, but the basic materials don't change.

To make smokeless powder, you need a chemical industry. The minimum requirement is to be able to produce nitric acid in quantity, and that's non-trivial. The modern method uses the Haber Process, but it's probably possible to do the job using saltpetre, although I don't know how that would best be done.

Edit: on the upside, if you can make nitric acid, you can also make ammonium nitrate fertiliser, which will do wonders for your agricultural production.

Last edited by johndallman; 10-25-2018 at 06:40 AM.
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Old 10-25-2018, 04:47 AM   #6
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Default Re: [AtE] Black Powder vs Smokeless

Ive done a lot of research into this subject for my own AtE games and the short answer is if your society can produce nitric acid, sulfuric acid, and some fibrous substance like wood pulp or cotton you've accomplished the easy part.

The hard part is working with face melting acids to make nitroglycerine without blowing yourself up, nitrocellulose without blowing yourself up, and mixing the two without blowing yourself up. Oh and this needs to be done in tempature controlled, oxygen free environment so you don't automatically blow yourself up.
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Old 10-25-2018, 04:58 AM   #7
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Default Re: [AtE] Black Powder vs Smokeless

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Bunyip View Post
Which one?
"Post-Apocalyptic Guns", by S.A. Fisher and Hans-Christian Vortisch in Pyramid #3/88.
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Originally Posted by Minuteman37 View Post
The hard part is working with face melting acids to make nitroglycerine without blowing yourself up, nitrocellulose without blowing yourself up, and mixing the two without blowing yourself up. Oh and this needs to be done in temperature controlled, oxygen free environment so you don't automatically blow yourself up.
It's going to be easier to make a simple nitrocellulose "single-base" powder, like the French "Poudre B." That way you don't have to make nitroglycerine.

Last edited by johndallman; 10-25-2018 at 08:35 AM. Reason: Puntcuation
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Old 10-25-2018, 06:39 AM   #8
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Default Re: [AtE] Black Powder vs Smokeless

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
The minimum requirement is to be able to produce nitric acid in quantity, … probably possible to do the job using saltpetre, although I don't know how that would best be done.
However, a little research reveals it. You can make nitric acid by using sulphuric acid and saltpetre.

To make sulphuric acid, you need sulphur, water, and one of several processes. The easiest one to set up is probably the lead chamber process, although the contact process is more efficient if you can manage it.
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Old 10-25-2018, 07:08 AM   #9
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Default Re: [AtE] Black Powder vs Smokeless

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
To make sulphuric acid, you need sulphur, water, and one of several processes. The easiest one to set up is probably the lead chamber process, although the contact process is more efficient if you can manage it.
Though a lot of the problem there is getting your nitric acid pure enough. If you leave in the sulfuric acid, or god-help-you too many atoms the lead or other metal catalysts, your nitrated product blows itself up on formation.

The ingredients of smokeless powder are a little harder to make than black powder (some people will claim black powder uses naturally occurring ingredients, and that's sort of true if you are an alchemist planning to make a couple ounces, but really you need to manufacture both saltpeter and charcoal to make very much of it), but the critical difference is the purity requirements. People make black powder with all kinds of junk in it, sometimes on purpose being deluded into thinking it improves something, but if you do that with nitrated organic explosives they go off, usually before you've finished making them.

Incidentally any fixed nitrogen works OK as a fertilizer - saltpeter is actually pretty good, and you can use straight up nitric acid (or ammonia) if you can then deal with the soil pH. The advantage of ammonium nitrate is that with the Haber process in a modern chemical plant you can make it in ton quantities from air, water and energy, so it's *cheap*. If you were making it in benchtop batches from something else, it's probably no better fertilizer than what you started with, and you don't have enough of it for anything bigger than your herb garden.
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Old 10-25-2018, 07:28 AM   #10
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Default Re: [AtE] Black Powder vs Smokeless

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
Though a lot of the problem there is getting your nitric acid pure enough. ... a modern chemical plant...
Looks like large calibre black powder it is then.

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Remember that AtE is set in the wasteland not civilization (if such exists).
Australia, with no central government, drought, sea level rise, and the potential for mutant camels, emus, and rabbits? Wasted Civilisation, perchance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
"Post-Apocalyptic Guns", by S.A,Fisher and Hans-Christian Vortisch in Pyramid #3/88.
Ta muchly. I've already got that; I'll look it up.
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