Defensive Auras

[Aldric]

DR stops bullets, it would be probably be worth a limitation to have it deflect them, as Luke Cage can tell you. You could also say that something that misses you because of your Obscure is scattered instead of going straight...
If you mostly ignore what happens to bullets that miss nornally, you could ignore it for those deflected by this ability and just describe them flying in different directions.

Oh... btw... I'm not even convinced by adding Area to Melee attack, I'd probably just say no to a player that came with such an idea.
But if I wanted to consider it, for starters, adding Area to a Melee attack, in no way makes it a ranged one, you still need to hit in melee for it to anything, and then you're most likely in the AoE and affected by it

So, mook punches you? He is knocked back along with you and everyone in 2y. He hits you with a baseball bat (or just another unnamed weapon that's just a +1 or something to his damage) same thing, except some mooks will lose their weapons and pull out new ones, others will have them unready and lose a turn, the fat one with the sledgehammer just stubles a bit and keeps swinging...

But as I said, I would just say no to the ability to begin with, too much hassle for very little gain.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Aldric

I'm not even convinced by adding Area to Melee attack, I'd probably just say no to a player that came with such an idea.

But if I wanted to consider it, for starters, adding Area to a Melee attack, in no way makes it a ranged one, you still need to hit in melee for it to anything, and then you're most likely in the AoE and affected by it

I agree with you, you need Selective Area to avoid hitting yourself with an Area Effect, unless it is Emanation, which is probably why Emanation isn't as big a discount as Melee is.

Originally Posted by Aldric

So, mook punches you? He is knocked back along with you and everyone in 2y. He hits you with a baseball bat (or just another unnamed weapon that's just a +1 or something to his damage) same thing, except some mooks will lose their weapons

That would make sense, though mechanically I don't know a means of knockback as a result of Striking At Weapons causing disarms.

http://www.warehouse23.com/media/SJG37-0133_preview.pdf page 11 Tricky Shooting: Ranged Disarms talks about non-damaging gunshots creating a ST check to avoid dropping something you are holding, and I'm pretty sure that Innate Attack is as hard to avoid as a gun unless you take limitations like "Blockable" or "Parryable" on it.

Melee Attack normally has those inherently but I get the impression that Aura may change that and the damage can't be defended against... which does make me wonder if you could take Blockable/Parryable on Aura.

The weird things about Ranged Disarms is that they're done with bullets, which normally cause some level (small/normal/large/verylarge) of Piercing damage, and I don't think Piercing normally can do any kind of Knockback unless you take "Double Knockback" which gives it a minor ability to do so akin to Cutting or Impaling I think? I can't help but wonder if some bullets ought to have that (in the Wonder Woman film, blocking hundreds of bullets with her shield as she walked forward seemed to visibly slow her down!) and if the capability to cause people to lose their grip on items when you shoot those items should be linked to the knockback those attacks would cause.

[Aldric]

Actually, thinking of how Aura works offensively when you hit someone that's wearing clothes, I'm tempted to say that the fact that someone strikes an Aura with bare hands or with a C weapon makes no difference. Longer weapons would prevent the aura from damaging you, and damage to the weapon would be ignored more or less like you ignore the fact that if you punch someone wearing clothes, the damage from the aura is applied to the person and not the clothes (ofc any DR actually worn, would reduce this damage)

And this is just the basic Innate Attack with Aura and no other modifier, I don't really want to think about all the possible variations, but some would probably just not work.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The idea was not to deflect bullets (the idea was to create an aura that pushes away attackers and that amplifies punches [aura attack independently of their controller after activation]). The question becomes what occurs to melee weapons and ammunition from attacks that occur after the aura is activated.

The simple answer is that none of Innate Attack, Aura, Persistent, or Area provide that benefit from someone in the middle of executing their attack.

Everything else here has been an exercise to justify "game world" effects that could result from such an ability. IMO, if you want those effect, they are better taken as other advantages. You could try to price out what the effective enhancement would be worth as well.

For example, an opponent hits the character with the aura active with an aluminum baseball bat. The baseball bat is not destroyed by the aura's attack, but we can either assume that its momentum is reduced by the aura or, after it imparts its momentum to the character, it receives new momentum from the character's aura.

Since Aura is activated from a melee attack, I'd apply it to the attacking character with the point of contact being the bat. Naturally it would be resolved after the attack for an aura, since the bat's hit is what is necessary to trigger it. Aura does not act to destroy an incoming weapon to prevent damage.

So, a ST 10 character would deal 1d+2 crushing damage with the aluminum baseball bat. The aura effectively deals 20d knockback when struck. In the first interpretation, the aura cancels the attack and strikes the attacker with a 5d+2 crushing attack (capped by the maximum ST of the baseball bat).

Aura deals straight damage. It isn't capped, it doesn't reflect, and it doesn't offset incoming damage. You would need lots of modifiers for this effect, and considering that DR reflection does it out of the box, I'd say you're using the wrong ability.

In the second interpretation, the new attack would be a 5d+2 crushing attack, which would occur randomly against a target away from the original (it might be the attacker, a bystander, or something else).

Aura always goes against the attacker that made contact. Enough knockback might throw the attacker into something else.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Plane

You've already made this confusing comment before. Whether or not Crushing Attack knocks things back has nothing to do with whether or not it has No Wounding and everything to do with whether it has No Knockback or Double Knockback.

It's not an inferred benefit, bullets are just an example of an object with HP which can be knocked back.

Where is that example?

You keep trying to write up a bullet a character when in truth if you were to represent it with a write up, it would be just an innate attack. The bullet would be nothing more than a side effect left behind as the aftermath of the attack.

To keep all innate attacks "fair" relative to each other, why is the bullet stopped why the energy attacks pass through the (10d cr area)? The idea of "side effects" is that they are either minor effects or balanced by a combination of benefits and drawbacks.

It's not "adding" anything, "intercept" is what aura/persistent Area Effects do to things which enter the area.

Since you can still breathe, it's obviously not attacking ever molecule entering. Unless you're destroying your clothing, the surface you walk on, and anything else in your area, it's obviously only going after a subset of "things".

Based on this, "Binding 10" should in theory have the same effective mass as an average human and be knocked back 1 yard per 8 points of damage.

No, I posted that it has an effective ST10 (HP10) for the purposes of resisting. Not all that glitters is gold.

If his webs are weaker than mass would indicate, you could treat them as "very fat", if they're tougher than mass would indicate, you could treat them as "thin". If they're just hard to destroy, you could probably design buying some limited DR that applies to your Binding instead of you.

You skirted the point that it wouldn't be handled consistently under what you're saying by instead suggesting even more house rules.

No matter how much damage a bullet does, it drops to 0 damage past its Max.

That doesn't pertain to my statement at all. You might as well have said, light is a wave and a particle <or> water is also wet. Force is still mass time energy, and the amount of energy you're trying to redirect should play a role in it if you're going to argue game world physics.

If I am bowling but the lane is full of plasma, the ball will always hit the pins before burning up?

In general, yes. The amount of energy required to completely disintegrate something in less than the fraction of a second it takes to complete the attack would be higher than most plasma lanes would be. If you start down the "real world physics" then you'll realize that the radiant heat would be more of a problem then if the bowling bowl melts.

There are a number of game mechanics that don't hold up to the real world: damage stopping at exactly max range, areas being crisp areas that do the same amount of damage evenly, etc. The game isn't intended to simulate real life. It's intended to be a playable game.

Crushing Attack has a cost :) This is not immunity to bullets, it's more like "increase the effective distance between you and the shooter".

Not really in the ability description of anything you've discussed purchasing for Innate Attack.

If a gun had Max 100 and you were 75 yards away and could bend space to double the distance between you and anyone within 100 yards, you would increase the effective distance to 150 yards and the gun would do no damage. But that wouldn't be "immunity to bullets" because if the gun was fired from 25 yards away, doubling the space would only increase the effective distance to 50 yards, so it would still be within its Max and inflict damage.

We could discuss this hypothetical power, but I wouldn't base "warping space" off Innate Attack. There would also be other logical repercussions.

One worry I would have with "Uncontrollable doesn't cost FP" interpretation is someone could take "costs 20 FP" on an ability they didn't intend to use, and just rely on the 'free' attacks made by the subconscious against obvious enemies. That's why it might work better if the Unconscious ability could commandeer your FP, but not below 3 FP.

They can also rely on Superman showing up to save them in the nick of time. It doesn't mean it will happen.

Uncontrollable lets the GM control it when you stress out. Where it goes after people, it will go after foes first. It doesn't mean it will do it in ways that benefit you (murder charges? bad target choice?), at times that are good for you, or that you can even count it on it going after someone at all (GM whim).

I didn't say they'd get damage during the user's turn if they were not in the area when it was activated. You're supposed to get damaged in 1 second intervals, so if you get damaged immediately upon entering (presumably on your turn, unless someone threw you in or teleport you in on their turn) then exactly 1 second later would be your turn again.

So you're doing damage on the target's turn/action but not the user's turn. I thought you meant upon entering and then during each of the user's turns.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Plane

You can read Kuroshima and PK's discussion about the mechanics at http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=72459 if you don't have the book.

I did, but I'm not sure it pertains to this discussion. It's an enhancement to make it continuous (and ease book keeping) rather than rolling every second.

Innate Attacks would need to fire off once per second. There wouldn't be a desirable way to normalize the effect for while they are inside the area.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Aldric

Actually, thinking of how Aura works offensively when you hit someone that's wearing clothes, I'm tempted to say that the fact that someone strikes an Aura with bare hands or with a C weapon makes no difference.

Clothing is a strange issue. I'd expect it to get torn up over time with cutting/impaling/piercing attacks, or melted by burning/corrosive attacks, the only thing that it would probably resist damage from is crushing attacks. Even clothing which doesn't provide DR should protect against stuff with Contact Agent so it serves as some kind of advantage... even if it's as little as "any damage destroys it, and that same damage goes on to damage the skin behind it, but some amount of damage must be inflicted to tear through it to touch the skin underneath".

Realistically even a thin t-shirt or pair of shorts could perhaps at last 1 ablative DR against Burning Attack, with the downside that it is more flammable than your skin and potentially more dangerous than a spark burning you immediately and then snuffing out, which could let it work out to 0 cost.

Originally Posted by Aldric

Longer weapons would prevent the aura from damaging you, and damage to the weapon would be ignored more or less like you ignore the fact that if you punch someone wearing clothes, the damage from the aura is applied to the person and not the clothes (ofc any DR actually worn, would reduce this damage)

I don't know that I would agree that anyone punched by someone with Body of Fire would have their flesh burned but their clothing would remain unsinged... just because we don't bother to track damage to clothing doesn't mean GMs can't fill in the blanks. Especially if you're trying to use that as a precedent that weapons are somehow undamaged by striking auras, which ignores "If a weapon strikes you, your aura
affects the weapon"

Originally Posted by naloth

Aura does not act to destroy an incoming weapon to prevent damage.

Normally yes, because the weapon has already hit by the time the aura triggers. If merely approaching the target (as with AE) triggers the aura WHILE it is incoming (instead of after) it's a different story.

Originally Posted by naloth

Where is that example?

The way to determine HP for objects based on their mass is given in Campaigns.

Originally Posted by naloth

You keep trying to write up a bullet a character when in truth if you were to represent it with a write up, it would be just an innate attack.

Innate Attack represents a gunshot, not a bullet.

Originally Posted by naloth

The bullet would be nothing more than a side effect left behind as the aftermath of the attack.

Bullets exist as things with mass before and after the attack. This is one of the requirements of having "Fast Reload" on your "Limited Use".

Originally Posted by naloth

To keep all innate attacks "fair" relative to each other, why is the bullet stopped why the energy attacks pass through the (10d cr area)? The idea of "side effects" is that they are either minor effects or balanced by a combination of benefits and drawbacks.

The benefit of potentially leaving a slug inside your enemy to infect them offsets the drawback of it being a targetable object.

Originally Posted by naloth

Since you can still breathe, it's obviously not attacking ever molecule entering.

Maybe it's targeting the atmosphere as a huge Diffuse object rather than individual molecules? It weighs something like 5.5 quadrillion tons, that would be a lot of HP.

Originally Posted by naloth

Unless you're destroying your clothing, the surface you walk on, and anything else in your area, it's obviously only going after a subset of "things".

Auras probably should do that, otherwise how do we explain how Human Torch burns up normal clothes which aren't made of Unstable Molecules like his costume? I figure that's why you gave "Perk: Power Tolerant Costume [1]" to your July 2007 writeup for him... although you made his Aura "Selective" so I'm not sure why he'd need it except maybe for critical misses with his fireballs, where Johnny might end up shooting himself in the leg, which could wreck his clothes if he didn't have his aura w/ accompanying DR50 force field up.

Do we expect that fire elementals can just walk across wooden bridges without damaging them? Not doing that would likely be the "Selective Effect" enhancement from Powers 105, or could also be Fire-Only DR with Force Field which protects your clothing against your aura.

If you have neither of these, and didn't want to use a Stunt (Temporary Enhancement to gain Selectivity, Using Abilities at Default to get DR) to get them, another option would be using Power Parry against your own aura to counteract your aura's attacks against things you don't want it to damage. You can only do 1 Power Defense per turn though, so that would only allow protecting one thing.

Originally Posted by naloth

No, I posted that it has an effective ST10 (HP10) for the purposes of resisting. Not all that glitters is gold.

It's the best guideline I can see for assigning effective mass to binding, but that should be optional since you could have an "energy web" or similar. GMs and players should probably determine ahead of time whether or not Binding is a physical object, and if so what its weight is.

This could be 0-point since the benefit of weighing victims down could counteract the drawback of being movable by enemies. This might be represented as Binding with a Link+10% to "Create" of appropriate matter, so "energy web which can't be knocked back" might be the default.

Innate Attack + Create would make sense if you fired bullets out of thin air, just not in the case where Innate Attack is a gun which relies on firing already-existing matter.

Originally Posted by naloth

Force is still mass time energy, and the amount of energy you're trying to redirect should play a role in it if you're going to argue game world physics.

I agree with you in principal, but though the basic set rules don't particularly care whether someone is running toward you or running away with you when you determine how far you knock them back by throwing a rock at them, except that actually someone moving quickly toward you can be knocked back FURTHER by a Crushing Attack because "Stop Thrust" (B366) gives you a damage bonus, and knockback is based on damage.

So weirdly, a sumo can knock you back further if he Stop Hits you with a Shove as you run 10 yards toward him (+5 to damage) than he could if he shoved you from a resting position.

MA106's "Charging Foes" doesn't negate the Stop Thrust bonus, but clarifies that knockback is not a guaranteed end to moving attack:

• If a stop thrust, parry, or obstruction attempt results in knockdown
  (p. B420), your foe falls, stunned. His turn ends. If it causes knockback (p. B378), he must use additional movement to close the gap.

The spirit of this is "knockback relocates position but it doesn't stop movement" so if you've only moved half your range that turn and the sumo shoves you back, you can still keep going and close with him again during that same second.

B62 "Innate Attacks are treated as ranged attacks unless given the Melee Attack limitation; then they’re considered melee weapons." does not exclude Auras, so the "your weapon
is in the way" rules in the following paragraph may also apply, though I could see a GM not allowing a contest of ST unless an attack was ST-based. I don't think it should apply at all to weapons not capable of being ST-based.

If you wanted to calculate "effective ST" based on damage, you could low-ball that by matching it up with the Swing column instead of the Thrust.

Originally Posted by naloth

In general, yes. The amount of energy required to completely disintegrate something in less than the fraction of a second it takes to complete the attack would be higher than most plasma lanes would be.

If you want to create some "Damage Takes Time" house rules (which I think sounds awesome) they should have to apply both ways. Meaning that even for non-AE auras, since the aura begins to damage the weapons as soon as they hit, and since weapons would no longer damage instantly, that the damage could compromise the weapon (and the damage) before it inflicted the full amount.

Originally Posted by naloth

There are a number of game mechanics that don't hold up to the real world: damage stopping at exactly max range, areas being crisp areas that do the same amount of damage evenly, etc.

If you want area effects to modulate some real things better, you use Dissipation or Explosion or Bombardment.

Originally Posted by naloth

Not really in the ability description of anything you've discussed purchasing for Innate Attack.

B61 "It is likely to cause knockback".
B62 "Attacks that depend on touch or on skin contact use Blood Agent (p. 102) or Contact Agent, plus one of Aura (p. 102) or Melee Attack (p. 112)."

Innate Attack does not dwell upon how Knockback works, or how Aura works, readers are meant to consult other areas of the book for those mechanics.

Originally Posted by naloth

I wouldn't base "warping space" off Innate Attack. There would also be other logical repercussions.

I had Affliction in mind, but you could also use IA with Symptoms (but not Side Effect) to afflict warp (or any other advantage) based on what % of AP your attacks can deplete, instead of a resistance roll.

Originally Posted by naloth

So you're doing damage on the target's turn/action but not the user's turn. I thought you meant upon entering and then during each of the user's turns.

Right, your aura hitting stuff is a free action. Some free actions can only be done on your own turn, or even only at the start of your own turn, or once per turn, but aura doesn't specify any limitations like that.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Plane

Normally yes, because the weapon has already hit by the time the aura triggers. If merely approaching the target (as with AE) triggers the aura WHILE it is incoming (instead of after) it's a different story.

Game mechanics:
I declare my action as shooting you. I roll to hit. If I succeed, you can optionally defend. Not that I had to succeed in hitting you prior the defense option, and prior to the effects of the attack being resolved.

Game world effects:
A bullet or laser pierces your body, doing damage.

The "bullet" is a game world effect. The game mechanic was me using a ranged attack. It could have been energy, bullets, thrown rocks, or whatever. The rules are the same regardless.

The way to determine HP for objects based on their mass is given in Campaigns.

Sure, as a guideline if it is relevant for the GM to do so. There isn't a "bullet" example, or a suggesting that you could stat it out and treat it like an NPC.

Innate Attack represents a gunshot, not a bullet.

Gunshots would be sounds, rather than what pierces you for damage. I'm not sure what other distinction you're trying to draw here.

Bullets exist as things with mass before and after the attack. This is one of the requirements of having "Fast Reload" on your "Limited Use".

No, it doesn't say anything of the sort. It says the GM determines the cost and weight of the ammunition, which could be a C power cell for your one shot dino-laser.

The benefit of potentially leaving a slug inside your enemy to infect them offsets the drawback of it being a targetable object.

Any type of piercing hole will have internal injury possibilities that could result in infection.

Besides, being able to negate ranged and physical attacks far outweighs the need to put Neosporin on the wound.

Maybe it's targeting the atmosphere as a huge Diffuse object rather than individual molecules? It weighs something like 5.5 quadrillion tons, that would be a lot of HP.

Sure, and the bullet can be part of that atmosphere.

Auras probably should do that, otherwise how do we explain how Human Torch burns up normal clothes which aren't made of Unstable Molecules like his costume? I figure that's why you gave "Perk: Power Tolerant Costume [1]" to your July 2007 writeup for him... although you made his Aura "Selective" so I'm not sure why he'd need it except maybe for critical misses with his fireballs, where Johnny might end up shooting himself in the leg, which could wreck his clothes if he didn't have his aura w/ accompanying DR50 force field up.

He's noted for having a nigh indestructible costume in the comics aside from his ability to not have flame on parts of his body selectively. From a realistic perspective, any radiating aura that could generate enough lift to fly him or enough heat to melt incoming projectiles would roast anyone in proximity.

It's the best guideline I can see for assigning effective mass to binding, but that should be optional since you could have an "energy web" or similar. GMs and players should probably determine ahead of time whether or not Binding is a physical object, and if so what its weight is.

If GMs are deciding on a case by case basis, then it's house rules rather than written into the ability.

Innate Attack + Create would make sense if you fired bullets out of thin air, just not in the case where Innate Attack is a gun which relies on firing already-existing matter.

???
You can fire ice, stone, or any other material out of your fingers with just Innate Attack, but you're suggesting bullets *need* to be purchased differently? That's certainly something that's just up to the individual GM.

back FURTHER by a Crushing Attack because "Stop Thrust" (B366) gives you a damage bonus, and knockback is based on damage.

Certain types of damage yes.... Generally a "stop thrust" will be done with an attack type that doesn't do knockback, and it's explicitly limited to a thrusting weapon.

So weirdly, a sumo can knock you back further if he Stop Hits you with a Shove as you run 10 yards toward him (+5 to damage) than he could if he shoved you from a resting position.

Unlikely, what is the sumo stop thrusting with?

MA106's "Charging Foes" doesn't negate the Stop Thrust bonus, but clarifies that knockback is not a guaranteed end to moving attack:

• If a stop thrust, parry, or obstruction attempt results in knockdown
  (p. B420), your foe falls, stunned. His turn ends. If it causes knockback (p. B378), he must use additional movement to close the gap.

Again, if you're taking a wait action to interrupt someone moving toward you, sure.

Game mechanics:
Wait, declares a response to something later in that turn.
Opponent declares an action.
Uses wait to interrupt and finish your prior action.

If you want area effects to modulate some real things better, you use Dissipation or Explosion or Bombardment.

I'm a fan of buying abilities in such a way that it fits your view of what *should* happen.

Innate Attack does not dwell upon how Knockback works, or how Aura works, readers are meant to consult other areas of the book for those mechanics.

Nor does it dwell on the things it doesn't provide like Flight, DR, and Teleportation. You're reading about 3 levels of additional justification by combining different enhancements.

Obviously Aura doesn't provide this defense as it takes effect after you're hit. Obviously area (Area/Cone, etc) enhancements don't provide this, as the "I go, you go" would normally prevent the intersection of attacks.

Why should the combination of abilities give it? Your essential argument boils down to "because it fits how I see the ability working." Forcing it to have that combination of effects is certainly fair, but suggesting that the various enhancements you've already purchased does that isn't. The enhancements aren't written or priced to do the effect you want.

<edit>
Since this is rehashing a number of points let's put it another way why this looks like it's wrong.

You buy Innate Attack 10d cr. This is an attack to shoot something. Sure it can be used as a power parry, but it's basically a simple attack. 50 points base.
You add Aura and Melee (Melee being required) for +50% net enhancement. +25 points. Obviously this doesn't reduce the damage you take either.
Now you add Area for another +50% and +25 points again. You now argue that this last 25 points gives you:
- protection via an automagic power parry - which effectively is 10d or 35 points of DR - against any oncoming projectile. DR (force field +20%, physical projectiles only -40%) is worth ~ 140 points or 40% more than the power costs by itself. That's before you consider how effective it will be at keeping melee guys back so they can't ever land a punch.

But wait! What if we limit this to "just knockback." (Which begs they question, why is a flaming aura providing less protection than a crushing aura for the same cost? Especially if a flaming aura has worse destructive side effects.) We run into problem one: what effect does knockback have on a bullet? Bullets don't really have a move value, can't be stunned, and for that matter don't really have significant weight on a per unit basis. Treating them as fast thrown objects produces odd dependencies (check the effective ST necessary for the range, vs the damage bullets do for their size).

Your suggested house rule to treat them as 1 point of KB = 1 yard of reduced range? On a 10d attack that averages 35 dmg, it's not going to affect much bullet damage at all. Oddly, it would be total protection from knives, hatchets, and most short ranged thrown attacks, though. Fortunately, for another +20% (10 points), you can double the protection you get!

With the costs, it should be fairly clear that the enhancements are giving far too much under this view relative to both what they normally grant and given the point value other things would cost.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by naloth

Game mechanics: I declare my action as shooting you. I roll to hit. If I succeed, you can optionally defend. Not that I had to succeed in hitting you prior the defense option, and prior to the effects of the attack being resolved.

Game world effects:
A bullet or laser pierces your body, doing damage.

The "bullet" is a game world effect. The game mechanic was me using a ranged attack. It could have been energy, bullets, thrown rocks, or whatever. The rules are the same regardless.

Thrown rocks are easier to parry than bullets, which require Enhanced Time Sense and Parry Missile Weapons to parry.

If someone throws a rock, I can pick it up and throw it back at them, but I can't pick up a bullet and fire it back even if I had a gun because the casing and gunpowder is used up. These 'world' effects do effect the 'mechanics' of what you can do in combat.

Originally Posted by naloth

There isn't a "bullet" example, or a suggesting that you could stat it out and treat it like an NPC.

B557 "Use the table below to determine the HP of nonliving artifacts." Bullets are NLAs.

Originally Posted by naloth

Gunshots would be sounds, rather than what pierces you for damage. I'm not sure what other distinction you're trying to draw here.

Gunshots MAKE sounds (thus the phrase "gunshot sound") but the term primarily describes the action of shooting a bullet. It has secondary usage describing the sound gunshots make, so the confusion is understandable.

I mean technically Innate Attack is actually an advantage which gives the capability to attack, not the attack itself... though that too I'm sure has been used both ways.

Originally Posted by naloth

No, it doesn't say anything of the sort. It says the GM determines the cost and weight of the ammunition, which could be a C power cell for your one shot dino-laser.

In that case the GM has assigned a mass of X for the power cells, and 0 mass for the attack.

Originally Posted by naloth

Any type of piercing hole will have internal injury possibilities that could result in infection.

I should have said poison, not "infect", sorry. Kromm in 2012: "I require bullet removal for two reasons: (1) to move the patient safely over any distance unless you have a fancy stretcher, since any jarring motion might dislodge the slug and cause complications, and (2) to avoid severe penalties to the HT roll for infection."

If your Piercing Attack doesn't leave bullets behind in wounds it causes, it lacks this benefit against opponents in exchange for being some unknockable energy fluctuation.

Originally Posted by naloth

Besides, being able to negate ranged and physical attacks far outweighs the need to put Neosporin on the wound.

I don't think that would help with tumbling bullet fragments or lead poisoning.

Originally Posted by naloth

Sure, and the bullet can be part of that atmosphere.

If you want to define an Innate Attack's projectile as air where it is essentially Permeable with the atmosphere , "No Signature" sounds appropriate. Dealing with air pockets penetrating the body is probably easier than dealing with lead fragments.

Originally Posted by naloth

He's noted for having a nigh indestructible costume in the comics aside from his ability to not have flame on parts of his body selectively. From a realistic perspective, any radiating aura that could generate enough lift to fly him or enough heat to melt incoming projectiles would roast anyone in proximity.

Originally Posted by naloth

If GMs are deciding on a case by case basis, then it's house rules rather than written into the ability.

I think we need to clarify whether house rules means following book instructions to have the GM determine things (like the weight of ammo used for Fast Reload) and introducing out-of-book instructions.

Originally Posted by naloth

??? You can fire ice, stone, or any other material out of your fingers with just Innate Attack, but you're suggesting bullets *need* to be purchased differently? That's certainly something that's just up to the individual GM.

If your attack leaves matter behind which wasn't at your target destination before, that sounds like what Create covers. If you leave behind matter that already exists, that's probably Elemental. The difference between "I create water out of a vacuum and fire ice shards from it" vs "I collect water from the atmosphere and fire ice shards from it".

Originally Posted by naloth

Certain types of damage yes.... Generally a "stop thrust" will be done with an attack type that doesn't do knockback, and it's explicitly limited to a thrusting weapon.

Why would it generally be done with non-thrusting weapons? Staffs seem like a common enough weapon.

Originally Posted by naloth

Unlikely, what is the sumo stop thrusting with?

Punch and Kick are listed as Melee Weapons on B271. If you want to make some overly technical argument that Shoves/Slams (or Knee Attack, Stomp Attack, Back Kick etc.) and other unarmed attacks don't also qualify as weapons simply because they aren't explicitly on that table, then we can talk about the knockback caused by thrust+crushing attacks which are explicitly there.

Originally Posted by naloth

Again, if you're taking a wait action to interrupt someone moving toward you, sure.

Game mechanics:
Wait, declares a response to something later in that turn.
Opponent declares an action.
Uses wait to interrupt and finish your prior action.

I'm saying if you want make Aura/Persistent less powerful, you can recognize they function like a Wait interruption, and use Charging Foes guidelines to de-power their ability to wreck incoming projectiles via knockback. Barring that then they remain uber.

Originally Posted by naloth

Nor does it dwell on the things it doesn't provide like Flight, DR, and Teleportation. You're reading about 3 levels of additional justification by combining different enhancements.

Knockback is not Flight, DR or Teleportation. There is some similarity in what thy can do, but it isn't the same thing. Those 3 things do not care about the ST/HP of their targets or whether they are Skinny/Fat, while, Knockback does.

Originally Posted by naloth

Obviously Aura doesn't provide this defense as it takes effect after you're hit.

Unless we use your "damage doesn't happen all at once" house rule where you think auraAE can't destroy bullets before they hit.

Originally Posted by naloth

Obviously area (Area/Cone, etc) enhancements don't provide this, as the "I go, you go" would normally prevent the intersection of attacks.

Persistent AE would, because Persistent (like Spines) happens during enemy turns, in response to enemy acts.

Originally Posted by naloth

Why should the combination of abilities give it?

AE changes Aura to "when it touches me" to "when it touches this perimeter around me". Non-teleporting projectiles will touch the perimeter before they touch the center.

Originally Posted by naloth

Your essential argument boils down to "because it fits how I see the ability working."

Affecting things as soon as they enter the area is simply how AE+Persistent or AE+Aura work, that's based on the books. They're attacks which don't care about your maneuvers once they're put in place by a setup maneuver.

Originally Posted by naloth

Forcing it to have that combination of effects is certainly fair, but suggesting that the various enhancements you've already purchased does that isn't. The enhancements aren't written or priced to do the effect you want.

Hitting things when they enter an area is how AE+Persistent or AE+Aura work. Knocking things back when they are hit is how Knockback works. Crossing intervening space is how non-Malediction / non-SAe Innate Attacks work.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by naloth

You buy Innate Attack 10d cr. This is an attack to shoot something. Sure it can be used as a power parry, but it's basically a simple attack. 50 points base.
You add Aura and Melee (Melee being required) for +50% net enhancement. +25 points. Obviously this doesn't reduce the damage you take either.

Unless we incorporate your excellent "damage over time" suggestion, correct.

Originally Posted by naloth

Now you add Area for another +50% and +25 points again. You now argue that this last 25 points gives you:
- protection via an automagic power parry - which effectively is 10d or 35 points of DR - against any oncoming projectile.

There's been some confusion, I was proposing using Power Parry as an alternative means of counteracting knockback damage for people who wanted to use a "force over time" kind of approach (which you also suggested) instead of the RAW.

The idea of opposing the gunshot momentum instead of the bullet mass. This is in line with your comment "Force is still mass time energy, and the amount of energy you're trying to redirect should play a role"

Basically the idea that if you didn't want to treat Aura as making a free attack, you could INSTEAD house rule it functioning as a free Power Parry, if you didn't like how the RAW worked.

The way you should actually resolve this RAW is since the bullet is automatically hit by the area effect, you would apply the 10d damage vs the DR and HP of the bullet, and from that damage in relation to the HP of the bullet, determine the knockback.

B483 "Damage to Objects" less than 1/3 HP = halved effectiveness so halving the damage inflicted by a bullet that badly damage sounds about right.

Originally Posted by naloth

DR (force field +20%, physical projectiles only -40%) is worth ~ 140 points or 40% more than the power costs by itself. That's before you consider how effective it will be at keeping melee guys back so they can't ever land a punch.

DR is different than Power Parry. For example: you can hurt yourself punching DR if it isn't flexible, and flexible DR doesn't protect against Blunt Trauma. RAW doesn't really care about how much weapon a damage an object is capable of doing when determining whether or not it is destroyed or how far it is knocked back.

Originally Posted by naloth

But wait! What if we limit this to "just knockback." (Which begs they question, why is a flaming aura providing less protection than a crushing aura for the same cost? Especially if a flaming aura has worse destructive side effects.)

You're talking about the difference between "enough energy to redirect" vs "enough energy to incinerate".

For comparison: if a super gnome zombie with 3ST/3HP and 100 DR is shambling towards me at 1yard/second, my 5d Burning Attack won't stop him, but I can easily knock him back faster than he can walk toward me by using a 1d Crushing Attack. That's just how the game mechanics work.

Originally Posted by naloth

We run into problem one: what effect does knockback have on a bullet? Bullets don't really have a move value, can't be stunned, and for that matter don't really have significant weight on a per unit basis.

B484 "Knockdown and Stunning: A nonsentient artifact ignores these effects". Knockback presumably works as usual. Making a DX roll to avoid falling down makes sense (you can knock over a statue or a chair, for example, which can't roll at all to stop it) but in the case of something long already on its side (like a bullet, or a statue or chair that has already been knocked over) I think you would treat it as Lying Down already, meaning it couldn't fall from the knockback.

Even things without Basic Move (reflecting the idea of being able to move under their own volition) could be treated as having an "effective move". Something thrown or shot or carried around is similar to someone using Affliction: Flight (or using TK to carry) to impart a move to a thing not under that thing's control.

It works more like "Sprinting" or "Enhanced Move" (in the sense that bullets only travel forward in a straight line). The end result of these are "Top Speed" which is not an actual advantage. We can calculate the speed of bullets via the "Bullet Travel" rules:

(Range in yards)/250 seconds and a rifle projectile takes (Range in yards)/600 seconds

If Range is 500, a pistol round takes 2 seconds to get there, which is 250 yards per second. If Range is 1200 a rifle round takes 2 seconds to get there, which is 600 yards per second. Basically whatever the divisor is is the effective Top Speed of that projectile, which is the Movement Points it has dedicated only to forward movement as a Flyer.

So unless you can inflict enough knockback (say, 150 points of crushing with Double Knockback to knock the a pistol round back 300 yards, or 350 points to a rifle round to knock it back 700) to make it require another second to get to you, the knockback won't make a difference.

That's of course using a "back the way it came" interpretation to knockback, not the geometry nightmare of "directly away from the IA source" to apply source in ways other than 180 degrees, which isn't something I have the skills to deal with.

Originally Posted by naloth

Treating them as fast thrown objects produces odd dependencies (check the effective ST necessary for the range, vs the damage bullets do for their size).

Striking ST doesn't line up?

Originally Posted by naloth

Your suggested house rule to treat them as 1 point of KB = 1 yard of reduced range? On a 10d attack that averages 35 dmg, it's not going to affect much bullet damage at all.

Exactly. It's not a big deal.

Originally Posted by naloth

Oddly, it would be total protection from knives, hatchets, and most short ranged thrown attacks, though.

That's caused by damage causing the same amount of knockback to things regardless of whether they have 3 or 2 or 1 HP/ST. If it doesn't feel right you could house-rule causing dmg*2 yards to HP/ST 2, dmg*3 yards to HP/ST 1, I guess? A 1-dmg punch/kick sending a fieldmouse 9 feet might be excessive though.

*just now realizing the weirdness that Stomps/Tramples cause Knockback*

Originally Posted by naloth

Fortunately, for another +20% (10 points), you can double the protection you get!

Yay for magnets. Whether or not you are merely absorbing the damage (DR) or knocking weapons back (Crushing Aura) matters a lot in respect to things like grenades, they're mechanically different.

I believe you want to compare this to DR (Limited: Very Common: physical attacks (from any material substance) -20%; Force Field +20%, Reflection +100%) priced at 10 per level. Of course it's a little unclear as to whether water (like the Corrosive Attack water sword in Powers) or acid (other form of Corrosive) qualify as "material" or not. If your DR was "I have a shield of wind which knocks into things aimed at me" then it should stop acid/water but not lose DR in the process, which would require some kind of Cosmic enhancement.

Another problem is Armor Divisors. Having an Armor Divisor on your attacks doesn't allow you to ignore Knockback. DR cares about damages of enemies' attacks while Knockback cares about enemies' HPs. "Reflection" also guarantees you'll knock the attack ALL the way back if you manage to stop it, whereas Knockback has no such guarantee.