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Old 12-03-2018, 09:58 AM   #41
ericthered
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
You didn't use your free step on your Evaluate, so if you want to take a retreat against this punch at your arm it won't cost you extra AP.
Very intentional, I assure you.

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The "No Nuisance Rolls" perk is for skills that are 16+ and being used outside combat. This is for 19+ and doesn't mention "perk" so I'm not sure it requires anything.

It's from:
Ok, I see.



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12<20 is a win of more than 5, so it isn't the reason I made my 2nd roll... but my first check was 15<16 so it was definitely the reason I made my 1st roll... um.... I'm wondering if there is some kind of "Grotesque Biological Reaction" table I could roll on for this?

Probably not. I'd guess 9 times out of 10 thats a euphemism for throwing up.


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It also says ALMOST so there could be exceptions, but I'm not really sure what those exceptions are meant to be, or really how to define when a threat is large enough to qualify as life-or-death.
Yeah, its hard to define. I like your sliding scale bonus idea. +2 for just avoiding getting hit in a bar fight, +4 to rescue your life's work from fire, and +5 when dodging a bear. Or something like that. For this game, both fighters have the same bonus.


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All-Out Defense allows you to go at 1/2 Move. I think you still have to spend AP if you want to go more than your free step.

Yes. The Last Gasp kills rapid movement.


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(I don't like the idea of free steps and free facing changes, Move mentions spending 1 AP to get 10% of your Movement Points, and always pay them and treat the "step" in maneuvers as a cap rather than a freebie. If that slows people down too much, could just double AP to compensate.
You're just annoyed with the way I'm using them! (Just Kidding)




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Possible the "Counterattack" Technique penalties and "Riposte" options too, in the spirit of "penalties my opponent's actions are creating on me" instead of "penalties due to my limb limitations"
Those seem to take longer to me, though I can see the option for it.


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I'm not sure if negating defense penalties actually burns the evaluate, it sounds like you can actually keep that benefit against all defenses up until you make an attack against the person you're evaluating.

You're correct. Though I notice that unless you make a deceptive attack or feint it doesn't apply at all. Which is pretty much the opposite of what you're doing right now, mr. telegraphic DWA. You're doing a crazy fist swinging charge hoping to overwhelm my ability to defend.


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Now I'm wondering how that works against multiple opponents, if you could maintain your evaluation bonus against 1 enemy if you attacked somebody else before attacking the evaluated enemy...

If you have two attacks and make them in the same turn, I don't why not.



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I'm not sure I understand this example, are you saying that that there shouldn't be AP loss to shock or strangulation if an enemy is already at 0 AP?
Yes, If you're already at 0 AP, you can't go negative. but you can only get AP to defend without waiting a turn.


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It creates a weird situation where if FPbeing burnt to regain 50% HT in AP is voluntary-only, you can conserve FP at risk of going unconscious faster, or choose to burn them and fight off unconsciousness.

That's not weird, that makes sense. Gathering your strength for a burst of activity rather than constantly fighting. And its a case for only burning FP at 0 AP being a bad idea. Or if you combine it with PIF, its the last spasm of desperation before they have to give up.


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The idea of involuntary FP-burning when you've lost of a lot of AP appeals to me...

Yes, its a strong one.



It think these are better done as will checks than HT checks. Though both would possibly work.


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It's more like "I can see he's stabbing toward my upper body, but I'm not sure if it's likely to hit me (chest -0) or likely to miss (neck-5) so I'd better start getting out of the way".

There is a school of thought in which missed attacks don't even involve a swing: they looked for an opportunity and didn't see one, or the started one and the opponent showed the ability to counter, so they didn't swing. And the expert countering the novice's wild attacks with minimal effort is a trope and a classic.



I'm a little disgruntled at just how directly such a ruling would support your current tactics.



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Critical successes don't cost AP, so if you give significant enough bonuses to defenses based on MoF of attack defenders will spend less AP over time against sloppy attacks that miss by large margins and gift those margins as defense bonuses. This of course works better if using 0.1 increments per MoS instead of needing 10 MoS to achieve reduced AP.

I do not find that criticals are a significant part of the game, and the .01 MoS really effect deceptive attacks, which are a major part of high-skill play.
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Old 12-05-2018, 04:56 AM   #42
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Shock should always apply, I agree. Applying the injury taken as a penalty to PIF sounds wrong. What if you're an elephant with 40 HP? Will any injury stop you from spending FP?
Resistance is Futile doesn't seem like it actually prevents you from spending FP, just encourages roleplaying inaction/recovery for an unspecified time. An elephant at 39/40 HP just seems less compromised than the cat with 3/4 HP in terms of applying a Will penalty based purely on total lost HP.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
This makes first blood very powerful.
Against those who end up burning an FP and need to make the roll, yeah.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
On the other hand, Partial injury doesn't apply any penalty at all to HT rolls, only to FP rolls. And the double dipping feels very wrong.
Partial Injury defines DX penalties which occur at intervals equal to fractions of max HP and are even smaller (~1 per 33%) than shock (~1 per 10%) when scaled to larger HP.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
This is a big enough issue to start a thread on the main forum, I think.
Thanks :)

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I'd like to use the don't bother rolling roll for PIF at 17+. I don't like crit-fishing, because crits are the part of the curve least like the true bell curve.
It's kinda odd how the crit-fishing barrier is different for the 2 rolls though eh?

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I strenously disagree. I swam the 500 yard freestyle and ran cross country in high-school. Being able to technically move but having a strong urge to do nothing is very very real. The +5 bonus applies, but if you are pushing yourself too hard, you will hit a mental wall long before you hit a physical one.
Right but the physical wall for ultimate performance is presumably running into negative FP, not merely burning 1 and feeling an incentive to pause. Of course, doing maximum speed movement could burn through full AP (burning several FP to reset it) pretty quickly.

Velocity/Momentum rules for swimming should maybe be a little different than running too, in terms of AP spent on maintaining full move.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
There is a school of thought in which missed attacks don't even involve a swing: they looked for an opportunity and didn't see one, or the started one and the opponent showed the ability to counter, so they didn't swing. And the expert countering the novice's wild attacks with minimal effort is a trope and a classic.
I remember that thread, but "did I expend the ammo" or "did I throw the spell" really does require solving whether or not you took the swing.

I'm a little disgruntled at just how directly such a ruling would support your current tactics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I do not find that criticals are a significant part of the game, and the .01 MoS really effect deceptive attacks, which are a major part of high-skill play.
Deceptive attacks can also be "speedy" attacks, attacking at weird/inefficient angles, kinda makes sense they'd take more energy to do. If each 0.2 more you pay on average costs the defender 0.2 more on average it would balance out. Some kind of IQ-based "I'm just better at timing" mitigation of AP would make sense though. I wonder if taking the "Feint" route to that could work better.
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Old 12-06-2018, 09:46 AM   #43
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Resistance is Futile doesn't seem like it actually prevents you from spending FP, just encourages roleplaying inaction/recovery for an unspecified time. An elephant at 39/40 HP just seems less compromised than the cat with 3/4 HP in terms of applying a Will penalty based purely on total lost HP.
I looked at PIF again, and found that the PIF roll happens the turn AFTER spending the FP. You expend your energy, make your mighty effort, and then feel exhausted 1 second later. That actually feels correct.



If we use the injury penalty, it should certainly be scaled to FP, though I will advocate classic rounding for this.



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Against those who end up burning an FP and need to make the roll, yeah.
You're certainly burning them quickly. Of course, you've got an innate +8 in a life or death situation, and wounds are famous for making people less active. So it may be justified. By the time you actually have a penalty, you've hit the 1/3rd of HP mark.



Quote:
Partial Injury defines DX penalties which occur at intervals equal to fractions of max HP and are even smaller (~1 per 33%) than shock (~1 per 10%) when scaled to larger HP.



Thanks :)

It looks like Doug was indeed referring to injury (as in damage), not the partial injury rules.



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It's kinda odd how the crit-fishing barrier is different for the 2 rolls though eh?

Which two rolls?



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Right but the physical wall for ultimate performance is presumably running into negative FP, not merely burning 1 and feeling an incentive to pause. Of course, doing maximum speed movement could burn through full AP (burning several FP to reset it) pretty quickly.

I feel like the mental barrier is at least as important as the physical barrier.


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Velocity/Momentum rules for swimming should maybe be a little different than running too, in terms of AP spent on maintaining full move.

And climbing too!



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I remember that thread, but "did I expend the ammo" or "did I throw the spell" really does require solving whether or not you took the swing.

Yes, both methods present illogical situations.


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Deceptive attacks can also be "speedy" attacks, attacking at weird/inefficient angles, kinda makes sense they'd take more energy to do. If each 0.2 more you pay on average costs the defender 0.2 more on average it would balance out. Some kind of IQ-based "I'm just better at timing" mitigation of AP would make sense though. I wonder if taking the "Feint" route to that could work better.

Taking longer to set up the deception, and thus using less energy? I can see that.



Ok, so I think we're applying an injury/HP penalty to PIF rolls, and they happen the turn AFTER you spend FP. Where does that leave green, AP wise?
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Old 12-07-2018, 03:45 PM   #44
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

which 2: Persistance is Futile (will) and Hitting the Wall (HT) is 17 and 19 caps. Which might have to do with the first getting +3 and the second getting +5 so since the bonus is 2 higher the cap is 2 higher, I guess? In which case the cap is, ignoring those bonuses, equal to having a modified 14 or higher.

I think I had 8/12 HP (4 to leg) 5/12 AP and 10/12 FP. You are uninjured, 10/10 FP, can' remember your AP...
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Old 12-10-2018, 08:35 AM   #45
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

I had 3/10 AP, and a +2 evaluate bonus.



The evaluate AP recovery roll failed, so I still have 3 AP.



Are you still in the presented side stance from gladiators?
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Old 12-11-2018, 08:21 AM   #46
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

I think so, I can't find having exited the Deny Left option so it'd be too late to do that now. The fear of the left leg getting totally crippled probably exceeds understanding of the threat to the right limbs.

Understanding these low-line parry rules and stacking with boxing and boxing not giving leg parries really makes me appreciate the importance of dodging for boxers. It really does become the uber-defense in GURPS.

(an interesting pair for this wold be some inverse of Revered Grip where instead of +1 damage -2 to hit you got -1 to damage +2 to hit, representing a "jab", but maybe that's what people do by default?)
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Old 12-12-2018, 09:19 AM   #47
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Red throws out another kick against his foe trained in boxing:


16 (skill) -2 (kick) -2(right leg) +2 (presented leg) -2 (deceptive) +2 (evaluate)=14 vs 14




That's a hit. Barely! Red is down to 2 AP. Green may parry at -4 or dodge at -2. That's a 7 for dodge, I think, or a 6 for parry.
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Old 12-12-2018, 12:25 PM   #48
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Your taking a -2 to skill for deceptive creates a -1 to all defenses so I think it would only be -1 to dodge.

Boxing is -2 to parry kicks, -2 to parry lowline attacks, so a total of -5.

My base of Dodge 9 / Parry 10 would be reduced to 8 and 5 based on the above. 9 and 6 with One Foe, 9 and 7 with "Deny Left" parry bonus to right arm. I could get my parry up to 8 if I wanted to use Cross Parry... but it's still inferior.

Clearly dodging is the way to go for best chances... and in recognition of how "parrying sucks" as a boxer's response to lowline kicks, against someone who can kick capably and shows willingless to aim low, there isn't much of a benefit to taking a stance to get a parrying bonus. Giving you a +2 to hit one of my legs allows you to take a -2 deceptive and negate that bonus anyway... plus penalize the superior alternative of dodging!

In recognition of that, and learning from this, I am going to exit out of "Deny Left" and take a neutral stance once more after this is resolved.
  • 1aa) your brawling punch to torso 5<12
  • 1ab) my boxing parry 8<12
  • 1ba) my boxing punch to random location 11<16
  • 1bb) your brawling parry 9<12
  • 2aa) your brawling punch to leg (8<12 if thigh, 8<11 if shin)
  • 2ab) my boxing parry 13>11
  • 2ac) my roll with blow failed, 4 injury, (24 seconds til Partial Injury)
  • 2b) my All-Out-Defense DOUBLE
  • 3a) you Evaluated (23s til PI)
  • 3b) I did a DWA and both missed
  • 4a) you recovered 1 AP, and Evaluated again (22s til PI)
  • 4ba) I did another DWA, right hit your left shoulder, left missed
  • 4bb) DID YOU DEFEND?
  • 5aa) you recovered 0 AP, and expended your evaluate +2 to kick deceptively at my leg (21s til PI)
  • 5ab) how I defend will be influenced on how you defended against the shoulder punch

In reviewing the notes and the dice log it appears that you might have thought my 2nd DWA also had both halves miss, but actually it was only the 2nd half (the left random punch) which did...

Could you choose an active defense against the 1st half (right handed punch to your left arm) to see what happens? This would reduce you from 3/10 AP to 2/10 AP unless you wanted to use Feverish defense in which case you'd go down to 0.

It's up to you whether or not you want to keep your choice and roll to kick depending on what happens. Given that you just tied it, even a single -1 could result in a miss but I expect if you had suffered shock you might have made a different choice (like not taking the -2 for deceptive) to improve your odds.

If you end up wanting to use Feverish and reducing to 0 this would mean needing to burn an FP to get the AP needed to kick.

Since you didn't use your step, you could also retreat for free, to get +3 to dodge or +1 to parry. Since we are in Close range, moving 1 yard away would still have you in range to make a kick attack at my leg if that's still what you wanted to do.

BTW this is kind of late to introduce this option but if you'd like we could use http://www.gamesdiner.com/rules-nugget-gurps-duck

This would give you +1 if you wanted to use dodge to move your arm out of the way (mobile extremity). This isn't an automatic bonus for the leg, but I think the "Jump!" option would be fair (you get the +1 if you make a Jumping roll). Unlike below,

There's also the option of Acrobatic Dodge. Since it involves a skill check and is a more flamboyant movement. Do you think that should cost extra AP? The potential of suffering a penalty seems cost enough. It's not really a 'separate' thing so much as a modification in how you do an existing thing, like with Duck/Jump in the above GamesDiner article (which I think also appeared in Pyramid 3-34)

If you wish to parry an attack on your hand or arm using that hand or arm to parry, you also have the option of specifying it is a "no contact parry". This would mostly be for purposes like "I don't want to touch the flame elemental" but where it is important in normal combat is that no-contact means an advantage to you: I can't use your defense to set up a Beat (ST based Feint). The disadvantage to you: you can't use it to set up a Beat either (no big loss when your DX is higher than your ST, in this case) and can't use it to set up a Judo Throw or Arm Lock on a following turn (also no loss in this case).

I also think it's reasonable to say that a "no contact parry" cannot benefit from a +1 for Cross Parry or the +1 if you were using "Deny (Side)" from Gladiators. To balance that out, do you think it would make sense to allow NCPs to benefit from the dodge bonuses that extremities enjoy, since that's basically what it is, dodging your limb using the Parry stat? I think that would be fair, so I'd allow you a +1 to "no contact parry" your arm out of the way of the punch if you would prefer that.

I think it would also make sense to allow a +3 on no-contact parries even for combat skills (like brawling) which only normally get a +1 on retreating parries. But retreats would give the usual +1 if using a contact-based parry (such as required to set up Judo Throws, Beats, Arm Locks, or use Grabbing Parry or Aggressive Parry).

If we were using weapons, I believe the usual penalty for parrying weapons unarmed should not apply if using no-contact parries. The penalty is justified as "it's hard to reach past the damaging portion of weapons" but you don't need to do that on no-contact parries which function a lot like dodges using the parrying skill.

Another proposed modification: I think that falling down on a critically failed dodge (as normal) makes sense if dodging your head/neck/torso/leg or if using a retreat to dodge against an attack on your arm, but in the case of non-retreating dodges against attacks on the arm, that's a lot like a no-contact parry and I think using the critically failed attack table (as crit failed parries do) would make more sense, since it's an out of control flailing limb. Thoughts?

How do you spend your 3/10 AP 10/10 FP to respond to the right-hand punch at your left arm? I think I have 5/12 AP 10/12 FP. I was previously at 1/10, burned my 2nd FP to go 1>7, spent 2 on my 2nd DWA, one of which was on target and needs an active defense if you don't want it to hurt your arm.

Last edited by Plane; 12-12-2018 at 12:58 PM.
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Old 12-13-2018, 08:24 AM   #49
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

Dodging shoulder attack: 9 (dodge) +3 (retreat) +2 (telegraphed) = 14 vs 10.



I'm at 1 AP. darn. Lets hope that kick connects.
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Old 12-13-2018, 01:35 PM   #50
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Default Re: A Challenger Appears! Green versus Red

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Dodging shoulder attack: 9 (dodge) +3 (retreat) +2 (telegraphed) = 14 vs 10.
You forgot the +1 for One Foe and -1 for DWA, guess that cancels out though :) Your retreat does not cost AP since you did not use your Free Step this turn.

Your dodge takes you from 3>2 AP, your kick takes you from 2>1 AP.

Since you retreated, you are 1 yard away, which is still enough reach to kick from. Since I did not use my Free Step in my DWA, I am also able to Retreat for no added cost.

I make a dodge (5/12 AP > 4/12 AP) while also retreating backward (so afterward we are 2 hexes apart). This is 9, +1 for One Foe, -1 for Deceptive Attack, + 3 for retreat for a total of 12. I'm still very worried about a death spiral so I'll opt to spend another 2 AP (4/12 to 2/12 AP) so that I can roll against a 14 instead.

I roll a 12... guess I wasted my AP, I could have just skirted by with a tie if I hadn't used Feverish! Oh well...

  • Just noticed something we overlooked...
    MA99 Standing people "Remove -1 from the hit location penalty to .. kick the leg or foot of a standing man"
    so instead of..
    16 (skill) -2 (kick) -2(right leg) +2 (presented leg) -2 (deceptive) +2 (evaluate)=14 vs 14
    it should be...
    16 (skill) -2 (kick) -1(right leg) +2 (presented leg) -2 (deceptive) +2 (evaluate)=14 vs 15
    Something to keep in mind for later.
    I guess presented legs are easier to kick than torsos!

for my turn: Do Nothing. We're 2 yards apart so I'm thinking I might try and regain some AP until you close the range.
  • 4ba) I did another DWA, right hit your left shoulder, left missed
  • 4bb) you dodged the right punch to shoulder
  • 5aa) you recovered 0 AP, and expended your evaluate +2 to kick deceptively at my leg (21s til PI)
  • 5ab) I dodged the deceptive leg kick
  • 5b) I choose Do Nothing
  • 6a) your TURN (20s til PI)

I have 2/12 AP 10/12 FP 8/12HP
you have 1/12 AP 10/10 FP 10/10HP

Last edited by Plane; 12-13-2018 at 03:39 PM.
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