Morph with Alternate Form modifiers

Dragondog · 03-21-2019, 05:18 PM

Absorptive Change, Non-Reciprocal Damage, and Reciprocal Rest can canonically only be used with Alternate Form. I want to use them with Morph. I am the GM, so I can do that.

These modifiers only relate to the 15 point cost of Alternate Form. What is most appropriate, to use the same percentages with Morph as with Alternate Form, or changing the percentages so that the cost for adding them will be similar to what it would be with Alternate Form.

To give an example. Absorptive Change, Extra-Heavy is +25% for Alternate Form. When using it with Morph, should it remain +25% or should it be something like +5%?

In most cases, this isn't an issue. It remains the same percentage. But as these only apply to Alternate Form, I was wondering if there is a special case here.

Anthony · 03-21-2019, 05:23 PM

The problem with non-reciprocal damage and reciprocal rest with Morph is that it means you can basically full-heal every time you change shape. I don't see a serious problem with absorptive change as long as you only absorb the gear you use in your native form -- if you can absorb gear any time you change shape you wind up with infinite carrying capacity, which is also problematic.

Dragondog · 03-21-2019, 06:00 PM

Those are good points.

The wording of Absorptive Change tells me that you can only absorb gear when you shift out of your native form and you only get it back when you shift back to your native form.

I listed all three modifiers for the sake of completeness, I'm only intending on using the first two.

Kelly Pedersen · 03-21-2019, 06:11 PM

I don't think it's a special case, no. I would apply the same percentage values for the Alternate Form modifiers when you're applying them to Morph. Reducing the modifiers would suggest that they're less useful when applied to Morph, which I definitely don't think is the case.

Anthony's point about Absorptive Change is well-taken, but since Absorptive Change is based on your encumbrance, I think the simplest solution to it is just to assume that absorbed gear still counts towards your weight limit. So if you have Absorptive Change at the No Encumbrance level, your BL is 20 lbs., and you absorb 10 lbs. of gear while changing shape, you can only absorb another 10 lbs. later on while changing shape again. And you'd have to change back to the first shape to "release" the first batch of equipment you stored that way.

The point about Non-Reciprocal Damage and Reciprocal Rest being effectively full heals is very true, and makes me think that they need to either not be applied to Morph, or heavily tweaked in how they apply. Offhand, I'd suggest that a normal-value Non-Reciprocal Damage would either have to apply damage to all forms of a given species or type (so if you get damaged as a human, all human forms you change into would be damaged), or have some mechanic where the damage will eventually "bleed over" to other forms.

Not another shrubbery · 03-21-2019, 06:23 PM

I've done the Absorptive Change topic before, but not those other two AF Only mods. The implication is that AC, as a version of Can Carry Objects, is inherent to Morph, at least as it applies to clothes. P108 of Powers gives a version of CCO that is explicitly applicable to Morph. That might fit some concepts.

Refplace · 03-21-2019, 06:30 PM

I have moved a few around but agree Reciprocal Rest and Nonrecipocral Damage are bad for Morph for the reasons as stated above.
I see AF as like Miracle Man where your swapping a body, perhaps in and out of a pocket dimension. But also good for popping into new bodies (such as with an AI taking over robots), in which case I could see them working as Morph due to having a bunch around.

Mechanically Morph can be just a discount for having a lot of forms. In some cases the healing and rest could make sense but you run into abuse very easily.
I would require ...
A) Bookkeeping for each wounded form.
B) Some limit on change to keep it from being unlimited healing.

On the other hand that is +80% (80 points) for both which is pretty close to Regeneration (Very Fast) which heals 1 HP per second for 100 points.

Anthony · 03-21-2019, 06:46 PM

Being able to shapeshift yourself back to health seems like a perfectly reasonable ability for a shapeshifter to have, but might be better implemented as a somewhat limited Extreme Regeneration.

dataweaver · 03-22-2019, 12:04 AM

Morph has memory slots, right? You get to change what's in a slot; but there are only so many of them (equal to your IQ, IIRC). I think that if you apply Non-Reciprocal Damage to Morph, it should have to apply to the slot, not the form that's in the slot: that is, overwriting a form that's damaged results in a different form that's damaged. Or if it applies to the form that's in the slot, there should be some sort of penalized roll, based on how damaged that form is, to overwrite it with another form that isn't damaged. Otherwise, as others have said, it becomes a free self-heal.

That's still quite a benefit, as you'd typically need to spend at least 35% more on Alternate Forms than in Morph (more, depending on how much IQ you have) to get that many damage pools to switch between: at IQ 10, we're talking about needing 9 Alternate Forms (135 points) to have the same NRD benefit as Morph (100 points) would provide; by the time you get up to IQ 14, you're talking about almost double the cost for the same benefit. Of course, the flip side of that is that there's a point of diminishing returns where you have far more shots than your ever likely to need; and arguably ten slots is well past that point. So that may just be a wash.

On Reciprocal Rest, I'd apply the same principle of treating each memory slot as if it were a changeable Alternate Form for this purpose.

Refplace · 03-22-2019, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Morph has memory slots, right? You get to change what's in a slot; but there are only so many of them (equal to your IQ, IIRC). I think that if you apply Non-Reciprocal Damage to Morph, it should have to apply to the slot, not the form that's in the slot:

Yes, though you can cancel that with a +50% modifier, No Memorization Required.

dataweaver · 03-22-2019, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Refplace

Yes, though you can cancel that with a +50% modifier, No Memorization Required.

Fair enough. I had been planning on adding a suggestion that filling a new slot should be subject to the same conditions as overwriting an existing slot (either having the damage carry over, or requiring some sort of penalized roll to take on a new form that doesn't include the damage), but decided against it. But with the reminder that unlimited slots are possible, I'll mention it.

This would mean that with NRD applied to Morph, you'd only be able to “insta- heal” by morphing into a form that you already used before taking the damage (for some definition of “before”). Assuming, of course, that I don't just flat-out say that Non-Reciprocal Damage is incompatible with No Memorization Required.

03-21-2019, 05:18 PM	#1
Dragondog Never Been Pretty Join Date: Jan 2005	Morph with Alternate Form modifiers Absorptive Change, Non-Reciprocal Damage, and Reciprocal Rest can canonically only be used with Alternate Form. I want to use them with Morph. I am the GM, so I can do that. These modifiers only relate to the 15 point cost of Alternate Form. What is most appropriate, to use the same percentages with Morph as with Alternate Form, or changing the percentages so that the cost for adding them will be similar to what it would be with Alternate Form. To give an example. Absorptive Change, Extra-Heavy is +25% for Alternate Form. When using it with Morph, should it remain +25% or should it be something like +5%? In most cases, this isn't an issue. It remains the same percentage. But as these only apply to Alternate Form, I was wondering if there is a special case here. __________________ Daydreams of a Dragon: My blog

03-21-2019, 05:23 PM	#2
Anthony Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Berkeley, CA	Re: Morph with Alternate Form modifiers The problem with non-reciprocal damage and reciprocal rest with Morph is that it means you can basically full-heal every time you change shape. I don't see a serious problem with absorptive change as long as you only absorb the gear you use in your native form -- if you can absorb gear any time you change shape you wind up with infinite carrying capacity, which is also problematic. __________________ My GURPS site and Blog.

03-21-2019, 06:00 PM	#3
Dragondog Never Been Pretty Join Date: Jan 2005	Re: Morph with Alternate Form modifiers Those are good points. The wording of Absorptive Change tells me that you can only absorb gear when you shift out of your native form and you only get it back when you shift back to your native form. I listed all three modifiers for the sake of completeness, I'm only intending on using the first two. __________________ Daydreams of a Dragon: My blog

03-21-2019, 06:11 PM	#4
Kelly Pedersen Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada	Re: Morph with Alternate Form modifiers I don't think it's a special case, no. I would apply the same percentage values for the Alternate Form modifiers when you're applying them to Morph. Reducing the modifiers would suggest that they're less useful when applied to Morph, which I definitely don't think is the case. Anthony's point about Absorptive Change is well-taken, but since Absorptive Change is based on your encumbrance, I think the simplest solution to it is just to assume that absorbed gear still counts towards your weight limit. So if you have Absorptive Change at the No Encumbrance level, your BL is 20 lbs., and you absorb 10 lbs. of gear while changing shape, you can only absorb another 10 lbs. later on while changing shape again. And you'd have to change back to the first shape to "release" the first batch of equipment you stored that way. The point about Non-Reciprocal Damage and Reciprocal Rest being effectively full heals is very true, and makes me think that they need to either not be applied to Morph, or heavily tweaked in how they apply. Offhand, I'd suggest that a normal-value Non-Reciprocal Damage would either have to apply damage to all forms of a given species or type (so if you get damaged as a human, all human forms you change into would be damaged), or have some mechanic where the damage will eventually "bleed over" to other forms.

03-21-2019, 06:23 PM	#5
Not another shrubbery Join Date: Aug 2004	Re: Morph with Alternate Form modifiers I've done the Absorptive Change topic before, but not those other two AF Only mods. The implication is that AC, as a version of Can Carry Objects, is inherent to Morph, at least as it applies to clothes. P108 of Powers gives a version of CCO that is explicitly applicable to Morph. That might fit some concepts.

03-21-2019, 06:30 PM	#6
Refplace Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Yukon, OK	Re: Morph with Alternate Form modifiers I have moved a few around but agree Reciprocal Rest and Nonrecipocral Damage are bad for Morph for the reasons as stated above. I see AF as like Miracle Man where your swapping a body, perhaps in and out of a pocket dimension. But also good for popping into new bodies (such as with an AI taking over robots), in which case I could see them working as Morph due to having a bunch around. Mechanically Morph can be just a discount for having a lot of forms. In some cases the healing and rest could make sense but you run into abuse very easily. I would require ... A) Bookkeeping for each wounded form. B) Some limit on change to keep it from being unlimited healing. On the other hand that is +80% (80 points) for both which is pretty close to Regeneration (Very Fast) which heals 1 HP per second for 100 points. __________________ My GURPS publications GURPS Powers: Totem and Nature Spirits; GURPS Template Toolkit 4: Spirits; Pyramid articles. Buying them lets us know you want more! My GURPS fan contribution and blog: REFPLace GURPS Landing Page My List of GURPS You Tube videos (plus a few other useful items) My GURPS Wiki entries

03-21-2019, 06:46 PM	#7
Anthony Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Berkeley, CA	Re: Morph with Alternate Form modifiers Being able to shapeshift yourself back to health seems like a perfectly reasonable ability for a shapeshifter to have, but might be better implemented as a somewhat limited Extreme Regeneration. __________________ My GURPS site and Blog.

03-22-2019, 12:04 AM	#8
dataweaver Join Date: Aug 2004	Re: Morph with Alternate Form modifiers Morph has memory slots, right? You get to change what's in a slot; but there are only so many of them (equal to your IQ, IIRC). I think that if you apply Non-Reciprocal Damage to Morph, it should have to apply to the slot, not the form that's in the slot: that is, overwriting a form that's damaged results in a different form that's damaged. Or if it applies to the form that's in the slot, there should be some sort of penalized roll, based on how damaged that form is, to overwrite it with another form that isn't damaged. Otherwise, as others have said, it becomes a free self-heal. That's still quite a benefit, as you'd typically need to spend at least 35% more on Alternate Forms than in Morph (more, depending on how much IQ you have) to get that many damage pools to switch between: at IQ 10, we're talking about needing 9 Alternate Forms (135 points) to have the same NRD benefit as Morph (100 points) would provide; by the time you get up to IQ 14, you're talking about almost double the cost for the same benefit. Of course, the flip side of that is that there's a point of diminishing returns where you have far more shots than your ever likely to need; and arguably ten slots is well past that point. So that may just be a wash. On Reciprocal Rest, I'd apply the same principle of treating each memory slot as if it were a changeable Alternate Form for this purpose. __________________ Point balance is a myth.[1][2][3][4]