Maximum number of people in close combat

[Michael Thayne]

I've continued playing with this, and surprisingly I've found that if you rigorously enforce those movement point costs for moving into an ally's hex, it becomes feasible for a high-skilled martial artist (Karate-18, with 3 points spent on the Kicking technique) to win against a much larger group of low-skill mooks (Brawling-12), even after I stripped the martial artist of "cinematic" traits like Enhanced Parry and Trained By a Master. What you have the karate master do is (1) step back either before or after every attack and (2) make their first active defense in any given round a Retreat. With this tactic, in any given round maybe two mooks get to attack at full skill, and others are forced to use Move and Attack, which usually misses. Choke points are unnecessary, and I'm not sure they'd even be terribly helpful, given the ability to stack multiple people in close combat.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

I've continued playing with this, and surprisingly I've found that if you rigorously enforce those movement point costs for moving into an ally's hex, it becomes feasible for a high-skilled martial artist (Karate-18, with 3 points spent on the Kicking technique) to win against a much larger group of low-skill mooks (Brawling-12), even after I stripped the martial artist of "cinematic" traits like Enhanced Parry and Trained By a Master. What you have the karate master do is (1) step back either before or after every attack and (2) make their first active defense in any given round a Retreat. With this tactic, in any given round maybe two mooks get to attack at full skill, and others are forced to use Move and Attack, which usually misses. Choke points are unnecessary, and I'm not sure they'd even be terribly helpful, given the ability to stack multiple people in close combat.

What about mooks running out wide and behind the martial artist?

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by ericthered

What about mooks running out wide and behind the martial artist?

This turned out to be tricky, because I was careful about movement point costs for changing facing, and assumed the mooks wouldn't want to turn their backs to the enemy. I should maybe reread the facing rules to make sure I did that right, but it did seem to be a problem for the attackers.

[Michael Thayne]

Hmmm, maybe I was leaving out getting a free facing side change at the end of a Move maneuver. That could be significant when Movement Points are a precious resource.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

In a formation fight there will probably be more people per space. Even so it is hard to imagine a yard allowing more than two abreast.

Phalanxes and other dense formations such as shieldwalls and wedges can be extremely dense. I think the general idea for Synaspismos, or locked shields, is something like 1.5 feet of width. However, keep in mind that in synaspismos, the first rank would literally have their backs against the bellies of the the rank behind, them, resulting in an extremely dense formation, close to about 4 men per "hex". This has generally lead me to limit the number of SM0 characters per hex to 4. Prone targets occupy two hexes, but count only once, and allow up to 3 more people in the close combat.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

I've continued playing with this, and surprisingly I've found that if you rigorously enforce those movement point costs for moving into an ally's hex, it becomes feasible for a high-skilled martial artist (Karate-18, with 3 points spent on the Kicking technique) to win against a much larger group of low-skill mooks (Brawling-12), even after I stripped the martial artist of "cinematic" traits like Enhanced Parry and Trained By a Master. What you have the karate master do is (1) step back either before or after every attack and (2) make their first active defense in any given round a Retreat. With this tactic, in any given round maybe two mooks get to attack at full skill, and others are forced to use Move and Attack, which usually misses. Choke points are unnecessary, and I'm not sure they'd even be terribly helpful, given the ability to stack multiple people in close combat.

Miyomoto Mushashi calls this out in Go Rin No Sho, where he describes fighting against multiple opponents:"There are Many Enemies

"There are many enemies'"*^ applies when you are fighting one against many. Draw both
sword and companion sword and assume a wide-stretched left and right attitude. The
spirit is to chase the enemies around from side to side, even though they come from all
four directions. Observe their attacking order, and go to meet first those who attack first.
Sweep your eyes around broadly, carefully examining the attacking order, and cut left and
right alternately with your swords. Waiting is bad. Always quickly reassume your attitudes
to both sides, cut the enemies down as they advance, crushing them in the direction from
which they attack. Whatever you do, you must drive the enemy together, as if tying a line
of fishes, and when they are seen to be piled up, cut them down strongly without giving
them room to move. "

[Michael Thayne]

As I've continued experimenting with many-on-one fights more, I've started finding more situations where surprisingly large numbers of fighters pile up in one square. It's very easy to forget what the letter of the rules is supposed to say if you're not using flat tokens that stack nicely, but I think I had one fight where four people were standing in a hex, with two more people lying on the ground in the same hex. I had to wonder if I should be applying penalties for bad footing, or roll damage for the down-but-not-out character getting stepped on (IIRC one was unconscious but one was merely stunned).

Setting a hard limit of 3-5 people starts seeming wise again, but I'm not sure where exactly to put it. Also, should the rule be different if some people enter from one side of a hex, some from another side? What if non-character objects are also occupying the hex?

[Plane]

When 2 people are engaged in close combat, I think there's a penalty for people outside of the hex striking into close combat.

What if you applied that penalty to a 3rd party even if they enter the same hex?

Furthermore you could also make it accumulative, so if it is -2 to hit when you're engaging with a hex occupied by 2 others, make it -4 to hit when engaging with one occupied by 3, -6 for 4, -8 for 5, and so on.

Eventually it becomes so hard to target individuals accurately that you're better off just targetting the hex itself (+4 to hit!) and then just rolling randomly to see which of the targets in the hex you hit, and randomly where on them you hit.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Plane

When 2 people are engaged in close combat, I think there's a penalty for people outside of the hex striking into close combat.

What if you applied that penalty to a 3rd party even if they enter the same hex?

Furthermore you could also make it accumulative, so if it is -2 to hit when you're engaging with a hex occupied by 2 others, make it -4 to hit when engaging with one occupied by 3, -6 for 4, -8 for 5, and so on.

Eventually it becomes so hard to target individuals accurately that you're better off just targetting the hex itself (+4 to hit!) and then just rolling randomly to see which of the targets in the hex you hit, and randomly where on them you hit.

This seems to make it way harder than it should be for 2 people to cooperate against a single enemy.

Another approach that might work is to decide that entering close combat involves standing on the boundary of two hexes. This lets up to seven people enter close combat with one person, but doesn't imply the possibility of packing people more tightly than 4 per hex. (One way to envision this: each hex is made up of one sub-hex in the center, plus six half-hexes around the edges.)

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

This seems to make it way harder than it should be for 2 people to cooperate against a single enemy.

Using steps/retreats you could alternate entering close combat with them to throw punches.

If using the ol' "I'll hold him, you punch" approach, you can grapple from reach 1 using Committed Attack (Long) in Technical Grappling, so if you have already established a grapple from close range, I don't see why you couldn't maintain it while stepping 1 hex away and dropping into a crouch.