Power plant design

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by whswhs

What skill do you use to design a chain saw?

Roll Engineer (Mechatronics)

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Power plants are a class of specialties of Mechanics. Does your version of Electrical Engineering default to Mechanics-6 as well as to Electrician-6? Or have you reclassified Mechanics to exclude power plants, so that if I want to build a steam locomotive I roll vs. Electrician?

Depends. For this we will assume that there are a lot of steam engines around. Roll against Engineer (Automotive). Are not there any steam engines yet, but the theory is known? Roll against the lower of Engineer (Electrical) and Engineer (Mechatronics) to get your engine. Nobody know what combustion is? Now you need Physics too.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

2.9 Management Engineering
2.18 Systems Engineering

What's Management Engineering?
And wouldn't Systems Engineering be a part of Computer Programming?

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

What's Management Engineering?
And wouldn't Systems Engineering be a part of Computer Programming?

Nope. Systems Engineering, in example, fixes bugs so improving already existent inventions (allows to fix bugs of any inventions so replacing any other Engineering skill). Management Engineering is a skill for management which supports the actual engineers (gives the bonus to any other Engineering skill and can replace Administration for engineering projects).

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

Depends. For this we will assume that there are a lot of steam engines around. Roll against Engineer (Automotive). Are not there any steam engines yet, but the theory is known? Roll against the lower of Engineer (Electrical) and Engineer (Mechatronics) to get your engine. Nobody know what combustion is? Now you need Physics too.

I had been assuming that Mechatronics meant the design of giant walking shells for use in war or construction. You seem to use it quite expansively, given that it includes both designing steam engines from first principles, and designing chain saws. What is your working definitely of what "mechatronics" includes?

As a minor note, your historical sequence seems odd. The way things actually happened was that steam engines were designed first, starting with the pressure cooker, and then the stationary engine used to run pumps in mines, and then the locomotive engine; and about the time locomotives and steamships were just starting to be figured out, Sadi Carnot came up with his theory of heat engines, which was the first step in the development of mathematical thermodynamics and is still valid. So I don't think there was "Physics" to roll against at a useful level in the days of Newcomen and Watt.

Also, what I asked about was steam locomotives. They didn't use electric circuits or devices at all, at least not for many decades after they were invented. So asking for a roll against Engineer (Electrical) to design one seems odd.

And finally, if we ARE talking about power plants, it seems just as likely that you already know how generators work and can order one off the shelf to have your steam engine or hydraulic turbine drive, as that you already know how steam engines or hydraulic turbines work and can order one off the shelf to supply power to the generator you're designing. Those seem to be two different cases that call for different rolls.

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I had been assuming that Mechatronics meant the design of giant walking shells for use in war or construction. You seem to use it quite expansively, given that it includes both designing steam engines from first principles, and designing chain saws. What is your working definitely of what "mechatronics" includes?

As a minor note, your historical sequence seems odd. The way things actually happened was that steam engines were designed first, starting with the pressure cooker, and then the stationary engine used to run pumps in mines, and then the locomotive engine; and about the time locomotives and steamships were just starting to be figured out, Sadi Carnot came up with his theory of heat engines, which was the first step in the development of mathematical thermodynamics and is still valid. So I don't think there was "Physics" to roll against at a useful level in the days of Newcomen and Watt.

Also, what I asked about was steam locomotives. They didn't use electric circuits or devices at all, at least not for many decades after they were invented. So asking for a roll against Engineer (Electrical) to design one seems odd.

And finally, if we ARE talking about power plants, it seems just as likely that you already know how generators work and can order one off the shelf to have your steam engine or hydraulic turbine drive, as that you already know how steam engines or hydraulic turbines work and can order one off the shelf to supply power to the generator you're designing. Those seem to be two different cases that call for different rolls.

Technological skills are adapted to their Tech level. Engineer (Automotive) at a low tech level would get you the wheel. Engineer (Electrical) includes energy engineering and with steam engines you are looking to generate energy. If you do not like Engineer (Electrical) then take the optional specialization skill Engineering (Electrical/Energy) instead. Mechatronics is a combination of mechanical, electronics, computer, telecommunications, systems and control engineering. Do you want to be bitter before starting to play? Give them Engineer (Chainsaws). Then allow them all to make chainsaws with Machinist to make it more unfair. Or force those who take Machinist to specialize too. You could then proceed to do the same for each object. And allow them to take specialties by class object and model too since in the real world most objects have their own unique design which take weeks to put together. Engineer (Electrical/Telecommunications/Telephones/Mobile Phones/Iphones/X).

If you want to make an extensive list and then sort out every item by their invention skill you can. I prefer (for the sake of my own mental health) writing that telecommunications is a subset of Engineer (Electrical) or Engineer (Computer) and then work with familiarities the same way that the Biology or Physics specializations are optional.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

Technological skills are adapted to their Tech level. Engineer (Automotive) at a low tech level would get you the wheel. Engineer (Electrical) includes energy engineering and with steam engines you are looking to generate energy. If you do not like Engineer (Electrical) then take the optional specialization skill Engineering (Electrical/Energy) instead. Mechatronics is a combination of mechanical, electronics, computer, telecommunications, systems and control engineering. Do you want to be bitter before starting to play? Give them Engineer (Chainsaws). Then allow them all to make chainsaws with Machinist to make it more unfair. Or force those who take Machinist to specialize too.

I don't even understand what this argument is about.

I'm not particularly trying to change the GURPS system of specialties for technological skills. I'm just trying to apply it in a way that makes sense intuitively. It makes sense to me intuitively that a generator is designed using Engineer (Electrical) and can be repaired with Electrician. But it does not make sense to me intuitively that a steam engine, or a gasoline engine, or a water turbine, or a windmill, or an atomic pile, falls under either skill. In fact, the repair skills are cases of Mechanic (Power Plant Type), and that makes perfect sense; and since one power plant type, clockwork, has an Engineer specialty, it makes sense that Steam Engine and Windmill and Atomic Pile have Engineer specialties too, and that those specialties are the same whether they are turning a generator that produces electricity or a shaft that turns a ship's propeller or a compressor that supports a refrigerator.

Your way of assigning things seems to me to be stretching the categories much further than they are meant to go. And if I were playing in your campaign I would be far less able to decide what Engineer skill to take, and far more dependent on your dictates, than I would be in playing a standard GURPS campaign.

So I don't find your system superior. I can use the standard GURPS system on the fly with no trouble.

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I don't even understand what this argument is about.

I'm not particularly trying to change the GURPS system of specialties for technological skills. I'm just trying to apply it in a way that makes sense intuitively. It makes sense to me intuitively that a generator is designed using Engineer (Electrical) and can be repaired with Electrician. But it does not make sense to me intuitively that a steam engine, or a gasoline engine, or a water turbine, or a windmill, or an atomic pile, falls under either skill. In fact, the repair skills are cases of Mechanic (Power Plant Type), and that makes perfect sense; and since one power plant type, clockwork, has an Engineer specialty, it makes sense that Steam Engine and Windmill and Atomic Pile have Engineer specialties too, and that those specialties are the same whether they are turning a generator that produces electricity or a shaft that turns a ship's propeller or a compressor that supports a refrigerator.

Your way of assigning things seems to me to be stretching the categories much further than they are meant to go. And if I were playing in your campaign I would be far less able to decide what Engineer skill to take, and far more dependent on your dictates, than I would be in playing a standard GURPS campaign.

So I don't find your system superior. I can use the standard GURPS system on the fly with no trouble.

Clockwork: Designing wind-up gadgetry – watches, mechanical men, and the like.

That is the clockwork engineering specialty. Since you are allowed to design any electronic item with Engineer (Electronics) from computers to starship sensor arrays but then you find up to fourteen specialties to repair them and the same number to operate them, it is just fair that you could stretch some of the others too. The Engineer (Clockwork) is to be differentiated because it allows to build mechanical men.

It is easy to take Engineer (Robotics) for comparison and check that it allows you to design a lot of things from robotics to cybernetics which of course include from braintaps and neural interface implants to animal neural uplifts and bionic vital organs as per Ultra-Tech. It is just fair to allow Bioengineering (Genetic Engineering) to come up with anything from brain and cardiovascular modifications to musculo-skeletal and sensory modifications too as per Bio-Tech. But flying spaghetti monster help us if we do an engineering specialty called Engineer (Electrical) or Engineer (Nuclear) or even Engineer (Power Plant).

Maybe I just find this hard but please tell me what would you use for:

1. HyMRI Scanner (Ultra-Tech p. 198)
2. Automed (Ultra-Tech p. 196)
3. Full VR Suit (Ultra-Tech p. 54)
4. VR Environmental Database/Character (Ultra-Tech p. 55)
5. VR Environmental Database/City (Ultra-Tech p. 55)
6. VR Environmental Database/Planet (Ultra-Tech p. 55)
7. VR Environmental Database/Galactic Empire (Ultra-Tech p. 55)
8. Interactive Total VR Dreamgames (Ultra-Tech p. 55)

I allowed from 4. to 7. with Concept (Mathematics/Computer Science) and Prototype (Artist/VR), 8. required the previous database to exist plus rolling Concept (Mathematics/Computer Science) and Prototype (Professional Skill/Game Designer). What would have you used? Since you do not like a previous concept roll with Physics to be able to replace such things, how many Engineer specialties would you use for an HyMRI Scanner if I told you it involves nuclear physics? And for an Automed? And for a Full VR Suit?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

It is easy to take Engineer (Robotics) for comparison and check that it allows you to design a lot of things from robotics to cybernetics which of course include from braintaps and neural interface implants to animal neural uplifts and bionic vital organs as per Ultra-Tech. It is just fair to allow Bioengineering (Genetic Engineering) to come up with anything from brain and cardiovascular modifications to musculo-skeletal and sensory modifications too as per Bio-Tech. But flying spaghetti monster help us if we do an engineering specialty called Engineer (Electrical) or Engineer (Nuclear) or even Engineer (Power Plant).

Now I think that's excessively satirical. There is a specialty called Engineer (Electrical) already, and I have not objected to it. What I have objected to is having it include building nuclear reactors. A while back, I wrote that Engineer (Nuclear) was a possible category and one I could find acceptable. What I suggested was that, given the precedent of vehicle types and machine types under Mechanic each getting their own Engineer specialty, and the existence of an Engineer specialty Clockwork corresponding to that power plant type under Mechanic, it might make sense to have separate Engineer specialties for different power plant types. That's a long way from suggesting that it's inherently wrong to even think of doing otherwise.

As to clockwork engineering including automata powered by clockwork, well, I don't think I'd want nuclear engineering to include automata powered by fusion reactors. Somehow that just seems like too much of a stretch. But I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with nuclear engineering including the electrical generators powered by a nuclear power plant. It's having electrical engineering include all the power plants that might supply energy to a generator that strikes me as taking things too far.

The strict parallel to Engineer (Electrical) would be to have Engineer (Mechanical) include all power plant types with moving parts. But GURPS seems to have decided against that, for whatever reason. Of course nothing stops you from house ruling otherwise.

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Now I think that's excessively satirical. There is a specialty called Engineer (Electrical) already, and I have not objected to it. What I have objected to is having it include building nuclear reactors. A while back, I wrote that Engineer (Nuclear) was a possible category and one I could find acceptable. What I suggested was that, given the precedent of vehicle types and machine types under Mechanic each getting their own Engineer specialty, and the existence of an Engineer specialty Clockwork corresponding to that power plant type under Mechanic, it might make sense to have separate Engineer specialties for different power plant types. That's a long way from suggesting that it's inherently wrong to even think of doing otherwise.

As to clockwork engineering including automata powered by clockwork, well, I don't think I'd want nuclear engineering to include automata powered by fusion reactors. Somehow that just seems like too much of a stretch. But I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with nuclear engineering including the electrical generators powered by a nuclear power plant. It's having electrical engineering include all the power plants that might supply energy to a generator that strikes me as taking things too far.

The strict parallel to Engineer (Electrical) would be to have Engineer (Mechanical) include all power plant types with moving parts. But GURPS seems to have decided against that, for whatever reason. Of course nothing stops you from house ruling otherwise.

Haha you are right because I would neither allow Engineer (Nuclear) to build automatas. Engineer (Robotics) may do that though. I included Engineer (Mechatronics) because it is multidisciplinary and I would like to think that it covers Engineer (Mechanical) too but if you can come with a short-enough list of basic engineerings I may just take it. This is what I found and I guess you would not take it: Engineering Branches. As you can see Engineer (Electronics) is a subdiscipline of Engineer (Electrical). Only for an exercise of imagination in this previous example:

1. HyMRI Scanner (Ultra-Tech p. 198)
2. Automed (Ultra-Tech p. 196)
3. Full VR Suit (Ultra-Tech p. 54)
4. VR Environmental Database/Character (Ultra-Tech p. 55)
5. VR Environmental Database/City (Ultra-Tech p. 55)
6. VR Environmental Database/Planet (Ultra-Tech p. 55)
7. VR Environmental Database/Galactic Empire (Ultra-Tech p. 55)
8. Interactive Total VR Dreamgames (Ultra-Tech p. 55)

I allowed from 4. to 7. with Concept (Mathematics/Computer Science) and Prototype (Artist/VR), 8. required the previous database to exist plus rolling Concept (Mathematics/Computer Science) and Prototype (Professional Skill/Game Designer). What would have you used? Since you do not like a previous concept roll with Physics to be able to replace such things, how many Engineer specialties would you use for an HyMRI Scanner if I told you it involves nuclear physics? And for an Automed? And for a Full VR Suit?