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Old 06-25-2018, 07:55 PM   #21
DouglasCole
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Default Re: New category for GURPS

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Originally Posted by mr beer View Post
3e is a broken mess IMO. That said, players tend to find it less daunting than GURPS. Why is that? We can say 'well they are wrong!' and leave it at that, not sure if that's helpful though.

My guess is that since most players' first experience of gaming is D&D, that's what they know and understand.
First level characters in almost any version of DnD are pretty simple. Roll some dice or allocate some stats, make a few constrained choices, and start play.

Later on . . . and how much "later" is "later on" depends on the edition, this bogs down in amazing complexity (I found that true of Pathfinder, which is why I'm very reluctant to write for it, and I write for GURPS). But right out of the gate, it's not bad.
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:41 PM   #22
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Default Re: New category for GURPS

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
First level characters in almost any version of DnD are pretty simple. Roll some dice or allocate some stats, make a few constrained choices, and start play.
Exactly. It has nothing to do with 'length'. It's because GURPS tends to front load the complexity, whereas D&D rear loads it.

I've found it's remarkably easy to get newbs into GURPS if you don't ask them to read the book. Instead you say "So of these templates what do you want to play" and then read the template names. Nothing more. If they have questions, like "What's the difference between 'Fallen Angel' and 'Vampire'?" then you answer as briefly and tropely as possible. "Well, a Fallen Angel is super tough, stronger and better at melee and hand-to-hand than a human, has wings, and can get powers to make evil run away or heal people, but tends to be poor at using modern technology. Vampires are tough, strong, fast and tend to have mind-control powers, they can sometimes turn into animals, but this is hiding or running away ability." Don't get bogged down into specific stats, etc.

Once they've chosen a template you hand them their character (you did premake all the templates as simple character sheets yeah?) and then let them know how many extra points they can have and the list of things they can buy with them (all from the template).

You then hand them their equipment sheet (also premade) with a few things for them to chose from (Load-Out style) and they are ready to go.

Of course if in a few sessions they gained some system mastery and want to make some changes, that's cool. I never have problems with that as long as they stay close to the character's abilities, or are making a new character.
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Old 06-25-2018, 10:14 PM   #23
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Default Re: New category for GURPS

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Later on . . . and how much "later" is "later on" depends on the edition, this bogs down in amazing complexity (I found that true of Pathfinder, which is why I'm very reluctant to write for it, and I write for GURPS). But right out of the gate, it's not bad.
True, BUT by that point the player has a better understanding of the game.
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Old 06-25-2018, 11:14 PM   #24
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Default Re: New category for GURPS

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True, BUT by that point the player has a better understanding of the game.
Exactly. As for Evileeyore, none of my players ever found GURPS difficult ... because I always did all the job for them (and because I know GURPS for about 30 years now, so I know how to keep it simple). The problems come when the newcomer wants to be the GM.

And there is another huge difference between D&D3 and GURPS. Once you have read D&D3 rules, you can pick up an adventure, play it, then pick up another adventure, play it, and do that untill you are confindent enough to write your own adventures ... or just go on playing ready to play published adventures and campaigns in a world that you discover step by step. You just have to read, like you were reading a novel. Brief, it is very easy for the GM.

While, with GURPS, you can try an adventure (usually a short one). If you are lucky, there is a second one. And then, you must do all the rest by yourself. It is much harder to learn the job.

How many of us learned to be GM with GURPS? Very few, I suppose. And the problem is that first loves are often the most intense. Once someone has played D&D, he often remains faithful to D&D.

I really think adventures could change that. GURPS could also become a game which immediately make think to great game worlds like Forgotten Realms, Golarion, and campaigns like Masks of Niarlathotep ... For the moment, when you think GURPS, you only think rules and ... rules.
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Old 06-26-2018, 12:09 AM   #25
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Default Re: New category for GURPS

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Later on . . . and how much "later" is "later on" depends on the edition, this bogs down in amazing complexity (I found that true of Pathfinder, which is why I'm very reluctant to write for it, and I write for GURPS). But right out of the gate, it's not bad.
Yep, and I think another factor is that the complexity tends to be silo'ed per class. If you're a Thief and you get some fancy ability, only you need to deal with that bit of complexity. So that whole section of the book describing abilities and spells and stuff have 90% of material you won't ever care about unless you change characters. Contrast that to the Basic Set for which most of the material (Traits and Skills) are available to everyone.

As for the OP (especially since Refplace was referring to one of my posts :) ):

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My idea here is a building block approach.
Isn't that what SJG is kind-of doing already, with DF's Artefacts/Treasure Tables/Monsters/Caverntown/etc., along with other things like Creatures of the Night, the Location, Hot-Spots, and Loadout series, etc.?

You can actually imagine a 3-tier pyramid of adventure resources, where "Tier 1" is meta-material (like GURPS Fantasy or GURPS Horror, which tell you how to make fantasy/horror worlds and adventures generally speaking), "Tier 2" are those "building blocks", and "Tier 3" are "ready to go adventures". SJG/GURPS excels at Tiers 1 and 2, and basically leaves Tier 3 to other publishers/systems.

As I mentioned in the other thread, until a few years ago, it seemed like GURPS was mostly about Tier 1 material. Most of the Tier 2 material seems to me like a fairly recent trend, which makes me happy since it closes the gap nicely with other games. It sadly doesn't help me that much since I don't run a lot of med-fan stuff, but I'm eagerly awaiting that trend to start spilling out into other genres.

Last edited by lordabdul; 06-26-2018 at 12:13 AM.
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Old 06-26-2018, 02:03 AM   #26
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Default Re: New category for GURPS

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How many of us learned to be GM with GURPS?
/raises hand...

I mean, I played D&D for uears. I even ran a single module in it (I was 12, it didn't go very well in my opinion). Then in high school I found GURPS and started running campaigns for my friends... just dove in, no experience even playing GURPS. None of us had even played GURPS, we just all shared a distaste for D&D.

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Once someone has played D&D, he often remains faithful to D&D.
I friggin hate D&D. I hate classes. I hate level based systems.

I. Hate. Orc. &. Pie. "Back to the dungeon" my ... grrrr...

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For the moment, when you think GURPS, you only think rules and ... rules.
I... I think of campaigns I've run, characters I've played. I don't, my experience here is different than yours.

The only systems where my first thought is 'something about the rules' are systems where the rules go 'clunk' for me. D&D with it's strict level and class structure, Rolemaster and it's weird charts, Storyteller and the exploding tens, AEG and their dice shenanigans, etc.
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Old 06-26-2018, 02:55 AM   #27
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Default Re: New category for GURPS

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/raises hand...
You are probably a rare one. But I may be wrong on that point.

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I... I think of campaigns I've run, characters I've played. I don't, my experience here is different than yours.
Maybe, precisely, because campaign I have run come from another game system ...

But I was not speaking for you and me (or any other who knows GURPS well and can go over that first impression). I was speaking about people who don't know GURPS and who just heard about it. Most often often, when you talk about GURPS, their first impression is precisely that it is a game for simulationists who love detailed rules for every situation, and that it is too complex for them.

One french roleplayer even told me: "GURPS? Oh, no. Never. You should better use the BRP system." Why did he say that? Maybe because the BRP rules are simpler ... but, actually, some of the BRP games are quite crunchy too. So, in my humble opinion, he said that because the BRP system make immediately think to amazing gameworlds full of adventures: Call of Cthulhu, Runequest, Stormbringer ... While GURPS don't.

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Old 06-26-2018, 03:29 AM   #28
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Default Re: New category for GURPS

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Originally Posted by lordabdul View Post


Isn't that what SJG is kind-of doing already, with DF's Artefacts/Treasure Tables/Monsters/Caverntown/etc., along with other things like Creatures of the Night, the Location, Hot-Spots, and Loadout series, etc.?

You can actually imagine a 3-tier pyramid of adventure resources, where "Tier 1" is meta-material (like GURPS Fantasy or GURPS Horror, which tell you how to make fantasy/horror worlds and adventures generally speaking), "Tier 2" are those "building blocks", and "Tier 3" are "ready to go adventures". SJG/GURPS excels at Tiers 1 and 2, and basically leaves Tier 3 to other publishers/systems.
Yeah, they already have a good start on this approach. I think the one thing missing is a book of maps. And if you pull in W23 stuff that can apply and give it all visibility you can address at least some of peoples concerns.
For example how many people know about Compact Castles?
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Old 06-26-2018, 04:30 AM   #29
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Default Re: New category for GURPS

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
Yeah, they already have a good start on this approach. I think the one thing missing is a book of maps. And if you pull in W23 stuff that can apply and give it all visibility you can address at least some of peoples concerns.
For example how many people know about Compact Castles?
Oh, I would like to add that what I said doesn't contradict your project!

In my humble opinion, adventures and campaigns are a mandatory to attract newcomers because "I want to play that kind of adventures" comes before "I want to play with those rules" (as long as there is no distaste for the rules - I do agree wit Evileeyore, here).

But books of ready to play NPCs, items or maps are very useful too. Even in a well written scenario, you sometimes need to improvise someone or something. Being able to do so without unintentionally showing your players that that person or thing was not in the adventure and, so, is not really important for the plot, is just great.

I would also buy books with NPC and maps, as long as that is really ready to play stuff (not just templates, or things with half stats, which enforce you to search through other books or chapters to get what you need - like the animals description in the Basic Set, for instance*).

* I do understand that it was made to save place. And it is fine for the Basic Set. But not having the damage inflicted by the animal (among other things) prevent to use those pages on the flaw during an adventure. Unless knowing almost everything by heart, of course.
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Old 06-26-2018, 05:09 AM   #30
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Default Re: New category for GURPS

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Yes it does. Because it precisely means that it's hard to notice it. To your opinion, why do you think that it is so hard to convince people to try GURPS while it is so easy to convince them to try the BRP system or Savage Worlds?
I don't think it's harder to convince people to play GURPS than BRP or SW. I constantly see people who have no connection to me flirting with the idea of GURPS, but only rarely BRP or SW. I think your argument proceeds from a false premise.
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