Would you like a Melee Fighting Talent?

[OldSam]

Derived from another thread (http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=2220460) I brought up the question what do you think about a melee fighting talent to reflect generic fighting experience apart from a specific single skill...? In my view it should be restricted in a way, of course, so not everybody has it, anyway.

My ideas was something between DX and the specific skill value, so I thought a talent would be an obvious choice, right...? What do you say?

Here is a first example as a draft, not playtested or something, please let me know your opinions on my numbers and/or give new suggestions... ;)

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Melee Fighting Talent [5/lvl]
Gives +1 to all melee fighting skills per level.

Restrictions: Level 1 requires you to have spent at least 8 CP in at least two different melee fighting skills. Level 2 requires you to have spent at least 16 CP in at least four different melee fighting skills. Level 3 requires you to have spent at least 24 CP in at least six different melee fighting skills.


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Some additional background:

I was looking at example situations like that:
A veteran sword fighter with DX 13 and Sword 15 (plus axe, plus dagger, plus unarmed experiences...) getting his hands on a spear for instance, but not having the spear or staff skill to make the point here.
On the opponent side we have a young soldier having his first real fights, also having DX 13 and maybe just Sword 13 and a little bit unarmed, not more. He also has to take his chances with a spear.


Which guy would you bet your money on? In GURPS? IRL?

My point is that this kind of fighting experience (new soldier vs the veteran), not directly related to a specific weapon skill, is currently not really covered by the rules AFAIK...

Also it would add to the chances of veterans anyway, making "useless" side weapon skills more valuable as a generic experience.


On the one hand weapons like a spear and a sword are obviously very different, I like the defaulting mechanics as they are and personally I would not change anything here. On the other hand, from my IRL experience, I would definitely say that "broad" martial arts training lets you learn a few general lessons like seeing openings, a better feeling for distances, psychological things etc.

I tried to restrict raising a fighting talent like that, in a relation to the number of different fighting skills and the overall cp count in all that skills (to represent broad and deep experience).

[Gigermann]

FWIW, my instinct is/was to say Combat Reflexes grants a +1 to combat/weapon skill defaults-only—essentially like Dabbler. Should logically make Combat Reflexes a bit more expensive, though.

[khorboth]

I feel like this is an unusual situation both in real life and in game. GURPS default rules are pretty generous in melee situations.

In GURPS, like in real life, in would expect the veteran to make better use of the terrain and combat options like defensive attacks and feints to win the combat. There's an optional rule somewhere about allowing the use of your highest melee skill for parrying purposes which may alleviate some of your concern as well.

I feel like putting in the talent isn't a major problem and probably wouldn't cause serious balance issues, but seems like an unneeded complication. There are already lots of advantages around combat.

[ravenfish]

Originally Posted by khorboth

There's an optional rule somewhere about allowing the use of your highest melee skill for parrying purposes which may alleviate some of your concern as well.

Can anyone source this? I recall resisting feints with one's highest skill in Martial Arts, but I don't recall such a rule for parrying.

[martinl]

It looks like what you want is more along the lines of improved defaults than combat talent specifically. Something like this, maybe?

Combat Basics: This represents broad-based training and/or experience in the "basics" of fighting. You can use any combat skill your martial arts style regularly uses as if you had spent 1 CP on the skill. [1] for 5 or fewer skills, [2] for more. For double this cost, you can add another virtual CP. For higher skill than that, buy the skill the normal way. Requires either combat reflexes, a martial arts style, or explicit GM approval for "broad martial experience or training."

I suspect you'd see a lot of PCs with this instead of the traditional (in my group) 1 CP in a close combat backup weapon as it is unambiguously better than that. If that bothers you increase costs by 1 to [2] and [3] - more than that and it will be rare in PCs.

[Anthony]

I'd probably just make all melee weapons default to all other melee weapons and leave the problem alone.

[Kax]

Seeing openings and using them are two different things. The latter is DX + Combat Reflexes + weapon skill.

Parrying with one weapon you aren't used to doesn't really cross over most of the time (an axe-user trying to parry with a rapier he's not trained in is in a bad way), and when it does there's already a -2 or -3 default between the weapons involved so that doesn't need to be modified.

This talent is better covered by Combat Reflexes + higher DX.

If you want to do it levelled for a superpower/Dungeon Fantasy Weapon Master, take multiple levels of Combat Reflexes and put a reputation modifier on it for other weapon masters.

Remember, combat is where sweeping advantages get expensive. Don't want to add complication as well.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by OldSam

Derived from another thread (http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=2220460) I brought up the question what do you think about a melee fighting talent to reflect generic fighting experience apart from a specific single skill...?

Except there really isn't any such broad covering 'experience'. Just because I'm well-trained with a glaive doesn't make me better at swinging a sword.

However...

Melee Fighting Talent [5/lvl]
Gives +1 to all melee fighting skills per level.

If you change it to "Only for overcoming default penalties" I personally would find it workable. In this case it's basically Dabbler with the 'Ambidexterity treatment' (once you buy something that's limited, ala Off-Hand Weapon Training, five times it's universal, ala Ambidexterity).

And I wouldn't even bother with any limitations.

A veteran sword fighter with DX 13 and Sword 15 (plus axe, plus dagger, plus unarmed experiences...) getting his hands on a spear for instance, but not having the spear or staff skill to make the point here.
On the opponent side we have a young soldier having his first real fights, also having DX 13 and maybe just Sword 13 and a little bit unarmed, not more. He also has to take his chances with a spear.

Neither have ever lifted a spear in their lives. I'd put my money on whomever has Combat Reflexes, which should be the veteran.

My point is that this kind of fighting experience (new soldier vs the veteran), not directly related to a specific weapon skill, is currently not really covered by the rules AFAIK...

It's called Combat Reflexes and a more broad smattering of skills. The veteran may have picked up Dabbler in spear, glaive, etc... making his defaults better. Or, being a veteran he may thrown a whole point at a weapon skill he may have used once in a battle that one time.

That's what makes him a veteran, and not just "swordguy who's been in a bunch of fights".

Originally Posted by ravenfish

Can anyone source this? I recall resisting feints with one's highest skill in Martial Arts, but I don't recall such a rule for parrying.

It's for Feinting just as you think.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Except there really isn't any such broad covering 'experience'. Just because I'm well-trained with a glaive doesn't make me better at swinging a sword.

Actually, it probably does. The actual swing mechanic is different, but a lot of stuff about footwork, positioning, target evaluation, etc, is shared.

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Except there really isn't any such broad covering 'experience'. Just because I'm well-trained with a glaive doesn't make me better at swinging a sword.

Well, I disagree at that point (at least having 15 years of MA experience under my belt), but maybe I should stress that I'm actually talking about "real" broad fighting experience, not just swinging around some swords for instance ;) IME people trained in different fighting categories over the years develop a more complete picture of what is going on around them.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Neither have ever lifted a spear in their lives.

Talking about soldiers trained in a sword era that is probably not the case, at times you practically have to do at at least a few very basic moves like stabbing and parrying with spears for your training with the sword... Obviously sword fighters are not training for sword vs sword only ;)
My point was just that they both do not have enough training with spears or staffs to earn a point, likely they would at least have a "free" familiarity being professional fighters, though.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

It's called Combat Reflexes and a more broad smattering of skills. ...
That's what makes him a veteran, and not just "swordguy who's been in a bunch of fights".

Combat Reflexes is a really good point, yes, but for me it would not be enough for that aspect as there is no differentiation between a young and very quick guy (naturally talented fighter) for instance and a veteran fighter. What happens if the young guy is a veteran himsel laterf, how can we represet that progress? Only 1-2 more perks feels not enough for me...