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Old 11-09-2018, 09:07 AM   #71
ErhnamDJ
 
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Default Re: Skills and Techniques are too expensive

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
My point was to not base skill costs off of some subjective value.
What objective value do you propose? And do you think that should be used to determine the price of non-skill traits?

It subjectively feels like Guns skill is worth more than Surfing skill, in the same way that it feels like Mind Reading is worth more than Speak Underwater.

If I had to pay the same amount for each of those things that feels like they're worth different amounts, I would feel ripped off when I do so. If some traits were worth much less than other similarly priced traits, I would tend to avoid purchasing those traits if the difference in perceived utility was too great. And if some traits provided far more perceived utility for their point cost, I would tend to purchase those traits more often.

Which (as I understand) is the stated design intent of having traits like HT and Combat Reflexes provided more utility per character point than the other traits: to encourage players to purchase them.

If your pricing method disparately prices traits in this way, you will end up incentivizing players to favor some traits over others.
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Last edited by ErhnamDJ; 11-09-2018 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 11-09-2018, 09:35 AM   #72
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Default Re: Skills and Techniques are too expensive

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
it's efficient to buy up DX or IQ; to buy one average Talent or a couple of lesser ones for each core stat; to push no more than four skills per stat, and no more than two skills per average Talent, up to 4 points/level; and to take no more than one Hard technique for such a highly developed skill. That gives you a character with a fair measure of focus—say, the physicist who has above average IQ, Mathematical Ability, high levels of Mathematics (Applied) and Physics (powered off of those) and of Computer Programming and Hobby (Chess) (powered off of IQ), and maybe a couple of Hard techniques.
I think this leads into a good way of understanding how skills can be overpriced.

It seems obvious that skills are overpriced in the following circumstances:

1) When you raise more than four skills controlled by a single attribute. If I put twenty points into each of Artist (Calligraphy), Poetry, Games (Go), History, and Savoir-Faire, that will be overpriced when compared to raising IQ. And if your character concept precludes giving the character a high IQ (perhaps he is a sheltered samurai who has neglected learning everything but his arts; he knows nothing of mathematics, farming, accounting, smithing, and so on), then you can end up paying more points to achieve the desired skill levels than if you had simply purchased IQ. In such cases, skills do seem expensive relative to purchasing the attribute.

2) When the skills themselves are overpriced in comparison to other skills. If the GM proposes an action game set in feudal Japan, and tells the players that the game will be focused mostly on combat, then Games (Go) is not worth the same price per level as Two-Handed Sword, Judo, or Bow. If I want to make my character an excellent go player in addition to an excellent swordsman, I feel ripped off when I have to spend the same amount of point to raise my go skill as I do to raise my sword skill.

3) When the skills are overpriced compared to traits that aren't related to skills. The original poster mentions advantages. Spending forty or fifty points on Guns skill seems fine in comparison to similarly priced advantages such as Invisibility, Mind Reading, Mind Control, and Unkillable. Spending the same number of points on less useful skills, such as Fishing, Surfing, Typing, etc. etc. doesn't seem fine. Whenever I (and the original poster, presumably) reluctantly do spend those points so that I can play the character that matches my concept, I feel like I've gotten ripped off. Which is what the example of the expensive tuba skill was meant to illustrate earlier.

If you don't think people are getting ripped off with Fishing at 4/level, you can understand that they would be at 8/level or 12/level or 20/level or at whatever price you think would be too much, and then see that many of us feel the same way about 4/level. Some skills are likely underpriced at the current prices, while others are overpriced. This is in comparison to the other traits you could buy with those points, be them skills, attributes, or advantages. It hurts to spend forty points on Fishing to make your fisherman when those points could have been spent on ST or Charisma or Guns or anything that's of a vastly higher utility per point. This was the OP's point. You might not have found it an issue in your games, but I have consistently found it one in mine.
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Old 11-09-2018, 09:38 AM   #73
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Default Re: Skills and Techniques are too expensive

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
What objective value do you propose? And do you think that should be used to determine the price of non-skill traits?
In terms of objective values, we can say that some things are clearly wrong.

Buying up a skill costs a maximum of 4 points. Some skills are based on Per. So if Per costs 4 points to buy up, no one will ever buy a Per-based skill up; they will buy up Per, and for the same cost they will get +1 to all Per-based skills plus non-skill benefits. Pricing Per at 4/level or less is objectively wrong.

Buying up Per and Will costs 5 points each. But if you buy up IQ, it raises both of them. So if it costs 10 points to raise IQ, no one will buy up both Per and Will; they'll just raise IQ. That's not quite as severe, but it does rule out a number of designs.

Values can be objectively wrong relative to other values.
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Old 11-09-2018, 10:04 AM   #74
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Default Re: Skills and Techniques are too expensive

Since Per and Will are 5 CP/level, it is almost always better to raise them than to raise any associated skill past the point where each skill level costs 4 CP per level.
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Old 11-09-2018, 10:18 AM   #75
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Default Re: Skills and Techniques are too expensive

Several of the recent points depend upon GM style, or so it seems to me.

GMs that float skill rolls to other attributes (or even to 10) frequently make it a little bit more difficult to compare the relative value of skills to their controlling attributes than just comparing the costs for each.

I'm not saying that Per at 4 wouldn't problematic. It just doesn't seem quite so absolute to me.
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Old 11-09-2018, 10:51 AM   #76
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Default Re: Skills and Techniques are too expensive

There's definitely some attribute optimization in most games. Everyone is going to look at the point cost of bumping an attribute or bumping several skills. And legitimately if your character is good at a wide number of physical skills it makes a lot of sense for them to be dexterous, same with IQ.

However at my table this really isn't so much drama. For one we build a lot of characters off template, so you get the attributes you get starting out. But even as characters develop building towards an attribute bump is slow and consumes most of the inertia of your character's development. We also tend to favor less powerful characters so it's difficult to abuse anything in the game. If you find that the slight bump you get from raising attributes rather than skills becomes a problem you might consider tightening the leash with less-powerful characters, realistic starting attribute caps or even templates.
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Old 11-09-2018, 12:27 PM   #77
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Default Re: Skills and Techniques are too expensive

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
What do character point costs have to do with the representation of the world? As I understand them, they're entirely about character creation.
Character points are also about how easy it is for characters to learn new things during the game. The representation of the world is very relevant for that.

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Originally Posted by PTTG View Post
In response to the OP, one reason to invest in skills at high levels is that skills float.

Want to be good at biology? Gonna need to make a DX-based Biology check to get that sample. Or throw in a Per-based Biology to spot anomalous data. Maybe even a ST-based Biology to shove a large hunk of lab equipment in place to block a door, since a more experience scientist would be more likely to know which piece of equipment is prone to tipping over...
Arguments about often floating rolls like these come off as more than a little forced to me. I have spent a few decades learning and working using multiple academic skills and I have pretty much never done anything with them that could reasonably have been floated to DX. Definitely never for ST.

Per might occasionally be used, but Per is usually close to IQ for GURPS characters, and if you happen to have really low Per, you would try to approach problems in a way which doesn't rely on Per.

Last edited by Andreas; 11-09-2018 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 11-09-2018, 01:14 PM   #78
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Default Re: Skills and Techniques are too expensive

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Arguments about often floating rolls like these come off as more than a little forced to me. I have spent a few decades learning and working using multiple academic skills and I have pretty much never done anything with them that could reasonably have been floated to DX. Definitely never for ST. [emphasis added]
I would agree with this. For that narrow class of skills*, about the only thing I would float them to is to a base of 10, for something that I feel is purely a matter of experience and subject matter expertise and not talent.

I do agree with your point broadly, though. I can think of many more instances where I would float a skill with a usual controlling attribute of DX to IQ or Per than I can the other way around.

*It is a lot of skills, sure, but for most of my games if those skills are present, they aren't a huge part of adventuring life and don't feature prominently on very many character sheets. YMMV.
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Old 11-09-2018, 01:15 PM   #79
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Default Re: Skills and Techniques are too expensive

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
The players are the main audience.
So, in part, because some people have difficulty in remembering the handful of skills they have written on the paper in front of them, your proposal is to reduce the number of disparate skills everyone needs to bother writing down?

In my case this won;t change the number of skills I write down, as I also list out every defaulted skill I think I might need (to save time when I inevitably need to look up it's default). And when I encountered a defaulted skill I didn't have listed but end up needing frequently... it get's added.

You aren't saving space on my Character sheet Bill, all your doing is ensuring that my Math-Physic-Science nerd Character is almost as smooth as the Face (second place in 'smoothness', way smoother than all the DX kiddies).



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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
What objective value do you propose?
Right now?

I like skills the way they are. I think Attributes are underpriced and Techniques overpriced*. Advantages might need to be bumped up a bit. If I bump up Attributes too much, Advantages definitely need to go up.

I'm unsure on Disads. They 'feel' right... but if I screw aroubnd with Ads and Atts... well...


* Yes, this puts Skills in a "too expensive" position compared to Techniques. My solution would be to start giving out free Technique points.

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And do you think that should be used to determine the price of non-skill traits?
Like Attributes? Yes... Ads... maybe.

Quote:
It subjectively feels like Guns skill is worth more than Surfing skill...
Sure. That's your opinion. And in a game where gunplay matters more than coming in first in the Maui Surfing Championship, it's even a valid one!

However... I don't think swapping them around for every game is worth the effort. If your China Beach soldier wants a high surfing, even if it doesn't really matter at all, he pays the price for the skill.

And as a GM I'll do my best to try to find a way for him to use it in a meaningful manner at least once. If i think making the skill matter would be meaningful to you.

But when I throw points into a Background skill, I'm just tossing "and the Character does this as a hobby/in it's spare time/used to do this" way. I don't really care if those 5-10 are 'wasted', they are serving my purpose which is 'fleshing out the Character'. Which is meaningful to me.

I know, not every Player works this way.



So no, I don't want to see different skills priced differently based on subjective utility. To answer the OP, raise the cost of Attributes, cap Attributes, or add some sort of meta-ability to skills (like Impulse Points based on number of points in skill).

Quote:
Which (as I understand) is the stated design intent of having traits like HT and Combat Reflexes provided more utility per character point than the other traits: to encourage players to purchase them.
Funny story... but do you know what it initially did with my group waaaaaaaaaaaay back in 3e? It caused those 'extra inexpensive' traits to be outlawed or repriced by a few GMs. Particularly Combat Reflexes. Those GMs thought the game designers had made an error and the trait was too cheap.

Quote:
If your pricing method disparately prices traits in this way, you will end up incentivizing players to favor some traits over others.
So? So what if I made all 'Hobby' Skills extra cheap? The gunbunnies still won't throw more than one or two points that way, gunbunnying is too important! And the Players like me would still invest just as heavily in useless skills, they'll just be more useless skills (since the points I dedicate that direction will spread farther).

But yes, there is a group that will appreciate being able to the world's best Surfer for minuscule points. But should we really make 'being the world's best' so much easier just because "we" devalue that skill for a particular genre?



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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
Arguments about often floating rolls like these come off as more than a little forced to me.
I tend to agree when you're talking mental/social skills floating to DX, ST, or HT. But it's dead easy to float physical skills to IQ/Per/Will, when making 'how much about this subject does the Character know/spot/resist' type rolls.
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Old 11-09-2018, 01:27 PM   #80
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Skills and Techniques are too expensive

One thing I have been working on is a list of bonuses you get to skills for having bought them up above base level but it's slow going.
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