Weapons 100+ years after the end?

[FPSlover]

Hello everyone, longtime lurker (and player), first time poster here. Basically what I am wondering is what the weapons would be 100 years or so (4-5 generations) after the end? By then, would not most pre-end weapons (bar those hidden or very well cared for) not be useful, either due to their deteriorated condition or lack of smokeless ammunition? That would mean that black powder would be back I guess. But would the weapons most use be flintlocks or would they have gone on to breech loaders or bolt actions by then?

Similarly, I am trying to also figure out the armament for a warlord mini empire (controlling about 100,000 miles, though most of that is likely not cultivated and with a population I am unsure of) . I figure they are about TL5 and are decently equipped at that level, having a few factories to produce weapons/ammunition needed. With that in mind, what would be appropriate to equip them with? Rifled muskets (with or without percussion caps) perhaps? Or would a breech loader like the Martini be better? Alternatively, I was thinking something like a Winchester '73 if only to share ammunition with a replica Colt Peacemaker. Bar the weapons, I figure support elements will be some cavalry, a few artillery batteries and weapons like mortars.

Really, and help in figuring this out would be appreciated.

[tshiggins]

LooBy the early 1800s, England had started to industrialize. By 1860 --- two or three generations later -- not only had England fully industrialized, but Prussia, France, Austria and (especially) the United States, were close behind.

This occurred despite the fact that nobody had ever industrialized before, in the history of the world, ever.

What's going on in your AtE setting that recovery to late TL 6 or early TL 7 remains incomplete, after four or five generations?

[mlangsdorf]

Modern guns will generally be serviceable after 100 years, assuming they haven't been used too heavily. Some parts like springs or wooden stocks may have been replaced, but the guns in general should be fine.[1]

Ammo production might be a problem for modern cartridges like 5.56mm that really want high performance powders, but manual action shotguns will fire with black powder as will most revolvers. And making smokeless powder and primers isn't incredibly hard, since it was historically done with 1860s and 1870s levels of technology. They may not be as good or as non-corrosive as modern designs, and they may spontaneously detonate during production or if you store them too long, but something that will fire out of a .30-06 and has a shelf-life of 6 months is almost certainly doable.

New designs are going to be at least rifled muzzle-loaders firing minie balls, because they're not much harder to make than muskets but more effective. Single shot caplock or cartridge breechloaders - the equivalent of a Martini-Henry - are more likely; as tshiggins notes, 100 years is a long time to rebuild society. And the difference between a single-shot breech-loader and a bolt action gun firing from a detachable magazine isn't that large either (again, 1860s technology) so I'd expect to see a fair number of those guns.

100,000 square miles is a lot of people - even at only 10 people/sq mi of average density, that's still 1 million people even though its basically unpopulated by modern standards. Some kind of bolt action rifle firing .45 black powder caplock rounds from a box magazine would a reasonable thing for that kind of group to have.

[1] I know several people who regularly go trap shooting or bird hunting with shotguns they inherited from their grandfathers or great grandfathers, who bought them in the 1920s. The shotguns have their original barrels though some foregrips or stocks have been replaced. I also know a lot of people that target shoot with .22 LR Marlins that were manufactured in the 1950s and are still going strong.

[weby]

Really the answer is "It depends".

The big question you have to first answer why it has not progressed back to TL 6/7 yet?

Is the population too low to support societies on such scale as required to maintain that high TL?

If so you will still likely see handmade smokeless firearms(the chemistry is not too hard once it was invented), but no industrial scale and they would be heavier due to lower quality materials and expensive due to the need to basically manufacture each like a precision instrument. So normal hunters and such could well use single shot or repeating black powder weapons as the pressures are lower so manufacturing does not need to be so precise and really anyone with basic knowledge can make the ammunition parts with only a few tools for the lower tech weapons.

Or is it because of some religious or similar doctrine that tries to keep tech from destroying the place again?

If so then weapons will be what is approvbed by the church.

Or is it Fallout like "because it is cool"?

If so, then whatever is cool.

Or is it because trade is not possible for some reason and there is shortage of something critical locally.

If so it depends on what is missing.

So overall it comes down to what has caused the society to reach TL 5 again but not higher and what are the other things like type of catastrophe that caused the end.

But on weapons being usable:
100 year old weapons that have been used should be fully usable if they do not have things like springs as long as they were used properly.
As for using old ammunition, I cannot say what happens with ammunition from 100 years ago, but I can say that 50+ year old ammunition seemed to work just fine. I shot tens of thousands of rounds 9mm in the 1990s that was from 1940s without any special issues.

[ericthered]

I seem to remember having a vigorous debate on a similar matter in an earlier thread.



My answer was 12-guage shot guns. As noted above, the guns will last a long time, but the ammunition will not. Rate of Fire is a big deal, particularly in military situations*. Shotgun shells are relatively easy to reload, will take black powder, and the tolerances are pretty loose. 12 gauges are very common (they might be the most common caliber period), so you don't have to worry about running out of old guns.


You also have a variety of ammunition you can stick into those simple old guns.



*If I'm remembering that old debate properly, it centered around if massed volley fire and massed cavalry in TL 5 was a hold-over from earlier periods or if those tactics were optimal for the time period. Its something of a rabbit hole.

[FPSlover]

Originally Posted by tshiggins

What's going on in your AtE setting that recovery to late TL 6 or early TL 7 remains incomplete, after four or five generations?

The End was cased by a nuclear war (including biological weapons use, which caused a mega plague) and society fell apart afterwards, heavily depopulated. Though you do make a fair point. I probably will have to rethink their level of industry and tech level. I'll probably change them to be mid-late TL6. In fact, that could make things better by allowing for tanks and such...

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Modern guns will generally be serviceable after 100 years, assuming they haven't been used too heavily. Some parts like springs or wooden stocks may have been replaced, but the guns in general should be fine.[1]

Ammo production might be a problem for modern cartridges like 5.56mm that really want high performance powders, but manual action shotguns will fire with black powder as will most revolvers. And making smokeless powder and primers isn't incredibly hard, since it was historically done with 1860s and 1870s levels of technology. They may not be as good or as non-corrosive as modern designs, and they may spontaneously detonate during production or if you store them too long, but something that will fire out of a .30-06 and has a shelf-life of 6 months is almost certainly doable.

New designs are going to be at least rifled muzzle-loaders firing minie balls, because they're not much harder to make than muskets but more effective. Single shot caplock or cartridge breechloaders - the equivalent of a Martini-Henry - are more likely; as tshiggins notes, 100 years is a long time to rebuild society. And the difference between a single-shot breech-loader and a bolt action gun firing from a detachable magazine isn't that large either (again, 1860s technology) so I'd expect to see a fair number of those guns.

100,000 square miles is a lot of people - even at only 10 people/sq mi of average density, that's still 1 million people even though its basically unpopulated by modern standards. Some kind of bolt action rifle firing .45 black powder caplock rounds from a box magazine would a reasonable thing for that kind of group to have.

[1] I know several people who regularly go trap shooting or bird hunting with shotguns they inherited from their grandfathers or great grandfathers, who bought them in the 1920s. The shotguns have their original barrels though some foregrips or stocks have been replaced. I also know a lot of people that target shoot with .22 LR Marlins that were manufactured in the 1950s and are still going strong.

Huh, if they can hold out for that long.... Guess the Warlord's guard will be using pre-end scavenged weapons then (a guard holding a M16 or similar automatic rifle, even with only a few rounds would probably scare anyone coming in to meet the warlord). As for the weapon, my only worry is that using too powerful of a round on my players may end up killing them (then again, that is what armor is for). A bolt action sounds perfect (assuming I keep the faction TL5 instead of TL6). You are right in that that is a lot of land, which is making me think about shrinking it to half or so.

[tanksoldier]

If things are so bad that they haven’t recovered to TL5 or so by then they will be at TL0 instead.

Knowing that something can be done, or not, is the biggest hurdle in doing it.

If all the books are gone, if all the engineers and technicians are gone, if all the recreationists and hobbyists are gone, if there aren’t any examples to reverse engineer.... then the die-off was so bad that the human race might not retain a viable gene pool.

[mlangsdorf]

The best historical rifle round to shoot a PC with is probably the Winchester .44-40, which only does 3d+1 pi+ which averages 16 injury without armor. An up and coming warlord wouldn't be out of his mind to standardize on .44-40 as a relatively inexpensive, controllable round that is sufficient to cause casualties out to 300 yards. The initial guns might even be replicas of the Winchester M1873, though I'd expect a move to bolt actions based on Mauser actions and 10-15 round banana clips as soon as possible.

I'd probably go with most of the troops using Winchester M1873 clones, that are being replaced by Springfield M1903 knock-offs still in .44-40 as the factories produce them. Assault units carry a mix of .44-40 guns and Browning Auto-5s, Mossberg 500s, and/or Remington 870 clones for close range firepower. Elite troops are armed with a hodge-podge of heirloom weapons, tending toward Remington 700s (for sniper types) and AR-15s and AKMs for the warlord's bodyguards - AR-15s have more ammo in the US, but have a dirtier action that is going to cause reliability problems 80 years down the line - with an effort to keep uniform ammo types and if possible weapon types within the same formation.

PCs with heavy steel breastplates (DR7-8) are mostly safe from individual .44-40 shots, though enough fire wear them down. AR-15s and AKMs are still pretty dangerous, even with DR 8, and a sniper with a Remington 700 in .308 will blow through that armor. It gives a nice threat range.

[The Colonel]

A lot of that cowboy era stuff is indeed your best bet as mlangsdorf suggests - black powder firing, relatively simple to manufacture and maintain and still fairly effective.

[Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2]

If chemistry texts survive, then smokeless powder (either modern formulations or a reasonable substitute) will be available. Mercury fulminate will probably be less available, so will probably be replaced by piezoelectric crystals (which will make quartz deposits valuable). What will be gone is TL8 precision machining, which will knock guns back to mid-TL7, and make automatics less desirable and revolvers more desirable.

There might be a resurgence in air rifles for military use, at least in places where gasket-worthy materials are available.

People are not going to forget how to read, and a lot of technical knowledge is widely available. By Day+100 years, the places with more resources and more stable government will have TL7 weapons. They may even have advanced to TL7+1 as new previously unexplored tech-trees are researched.