Reinforced Concrete, Punching and ST

[Sunrunners_Fire]

To confirm my understanding (at one of my player's request): There is a character who wishes to reliably punch through a foot thick reinforced concrete wall using raw strength. It is whole-body ST, so Striking ST, Crushing Innate Attacks, etc, aren't applicable. (Not that the character in question has these things anywise.)

The question is ... how much ST does he need?

My answer:
A cubic foot of reinforced concrete generically weighs 150 lbs, has 42~43 HP and provides 120~144 Cover DR (being 12 inches thick). The character is essentially invoking overpenetration vs the concrete and so needs a basic damage that exceeds (HP / 4) + Cover DR. Thereby, the character needs 155~ basic damage / 45~ damage dice / ST 440~.

Concerns:
Punching does Crushing damage, which isn't one of the damage types permitted to do overpenetration. Likewise, punching is a melee attack and not a ranged attack. I've ruled that sufficient damage will allow overpenetration regardless but I might be missing something that would be more suitable, and so I ask.

[Belial666]

ST 100
Power Blow = 2x or 3x strength
Karate at DX+2 = +2 damage per die
All-Out Attack: Strong = +1 per die

Total damage 22d+66 or 33d+99 (av. 143 - 214)



A trained warrior needs far less strength to smash through the concrete.

[simply Nathan]

Originally Posted by Belial666

ST 100
Power Blow = 2x or 3x strength
Karate at DX+2 = +2 damage per die
All-Out Attack: Strong = +1 per die

Total damage 22d+66 or 33d+99 (av. 143 - 214)



A trained warrior needs far less strength to smash through the concrete.

You can get even more damage by taking Forced Entry as well. Also the +2/die from Karate kicks in at only DX+1; DX+2 just gives another +1 to hit with it.

[Ashtagon]

He wants to punch through the wall, correct? Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this exactly the sort of thing that Striking ST was created for?

[Balor Patch]

The analysis of the concrete seems correct. Crushing damage should transition to piercing at some concentration of force (e.g. a round mace head does crushing, firing the same sphere from a cannon is piercing) so if the fist is doing more damage than a cannonball of the same size then treating it as huge piercing would be fair.

Using rapid strike with the first hit damaging the block (it's DR is ablative against crushing or huge piercing) and the second going through it would be another way reduce the ST required.

[Nereidalbel]

Why would a punch NOT use Striking ST? And what kind of points budget are we looking at here?

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Belial666

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Originally Posted by Kenneth Latrans

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Sadly, the character in question isn't a trained warrior.

Originally Posted by Ashtagon

He wants to punch through the wall, correct?

He does.

Originally Posted by Ashtagon

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this exactly the sort of thing that Striking ST was created for?

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Why would a punch NOT use Striking ST?

Striking ST is a subset of ST; the character in question doesn't possess Striking ST in excess of his ST.

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

And what kind of points budget are we looking at here?

A few thousand, give or take. Maybe more if they need it to accurately model the already-approved character concepts.

Originally Posted by Balor Patch

Using rapid strike with the first hit damaging the block (it's DR is ablative against crushing or huge piercing) and the second going through it would be another way reduce the ST required.

Noted.

Originally Posted by Balor Patch

The analysis of the concrete seems correct. Crushing damage should transition to piercing at some concentration of force (e.g. a round mace head does crushing, firing the same sphere from a cannon is piercing) so if the fist is doing more damage than a cannonball of the same size then treating it as huge piercing would be fair.

Sounds reasonable.

...

The general conclusion is that I've not missed anything in the rules and that my answer to his question wasn't incorrect?

[Genesis]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

Striking ST is a subset of ST; the character in question doesn't possess Striking ST in excess of his ST.

um, what? Striking ST is in addition to regular ST; when calculating damage from strikes, you add the two together and look up the total on the damage table. If a player wants his char to reliably punch through a concrete wall, I would direct him straight to Striking ST and (as previously mentioned), Power Blow, Karate, AOA (Strong), etc. Of these, Striking ST is totally reasonable even for characters who aren't trained warriors but are instead simply very punchy.

In any event, your math on the concrete seems reasonable. I'd rule that anything in excess of cover DR can result in fist-through-wall. At that sort of damage regime, against a homogeneous target, there's no reason to fret over crushing vs piercing.

[simply Nathan]

Originally Posted by Genesis

um, what? Striking ST is in addition to regular ST

What we're talking about is the character's Striking ST not exceeding his overall ST. Finding out how much HP and how high a BL he has from seeing what his ST needs to be in order to reliably punch through brick walls without any training.



And I'd suggest him slowly dropping 8 points or so each into Karate and Forced Entry, showing him gradually training up to apply that same superhuman ST in a more effective manner. Or heck, Boxing gives the same damage bonus as Karate but focused on punching.

[Nereidalbel]

If you're going with pure, unmodified ST, spending the 4000+ to get him into the range needed is the simplest way to go. High skills in per-die bonuses will cut that down, but it's still going to be expensive.


ST 14: Cosmic: Can buy off FP (+50%), Reduced Fatigue Cost (+20%), Super ST(+300%) [658] nets you a guy who *looks* normal, but acts like he has 500 ST in every other way, if you're going to allow the Super ST version of Super Effort.