Feinting with a Slam attack.

[Incard]

The only reaction it really provokes is to force the contest of weapon skill. TKD clearly meant, I think, that the defender does not 'react' in the same way as to a normal attack, such as by using an active defense or retreating. You might get some kind of other reaction if the defender was performing a Wait maneuver and had some kind of trigger depending on the attacker's position or movement. But that's not going to be different if it's an attack or a feint or nothing at all but movement.

[DouglasCole]

I think the type of feint (lowercase F) we're talking about here would probably be a Deceptive Attack, which penalizes defenses. This would, game mechanically, be the equivalent (one option) of faking low, striking high, or something equivalent.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I think the type of feint (lowercase F) we're talking about here would probably be a Deceptive Attack, which penalizes defenses. This would, game mechanically, be the equivalent (one option) of faking low, striking high, or something equivalent.

It still wouldn't provoke a use of an AD or a reason to Retreat. It also arguably doesn't trigger certain Waits with the condition of an attack.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Molokh

It still wouldn't provoke a use of an AD or a reason to Retreat. It also arguably doesn't trigger certain Waits with the condition of an attack.

Yes it would. If you do a deceptive attack, if you choose not to defend, you get hit. if you defend, you do so at a penalty, and retreating is an obvious way to offset that penalty.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Yes it would. If you do a deceptive attack, if you choose not to defend, you get hit. if you defend, you do so at a penalty, and retreating is an obvious way to offset that penalty.

So how do I distinguish a Deceptive attack from a fake Attack? One of the issues with Deceptive Attack is that if I actually hit the target, I can get hit by an Aura, Riposted, and many other nasties which don't happen when I feint.

[Kromm]

Feint is a set of progressive actions intended to cause your foe to assume a less-than-favorable defensive stance. It typically represents a change in gaze, rhythm, stance, etc., intended to throw off your rival's timing and/or preparation. It need not involve a fake attack; in fact, it often involves not attacking when your opponent expects you to do so. If you glance at his hand, twitch, and half-turn, and he startles and breaks his rhythm, then you gain the advantage, because you're controlling what he's doing. If he reads you better and calmly continues what he's doing . . . well, you've accomplished nothing.

Deceptive Attack is a single action that -- in the time it takes for a blow to fall -- eludes your opponent's defense and results in him being hit. It typically represents an attack that's too fast to evade, that comes from an unexpected angle, and/or that changes target mid-execution to bypass a defensive reaction. However, it's an actual attack, and if not blocked, dodged, or parried, it will land. The target knows you're not faking . . . if he doesn't react, he'll be hit.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Feint is a set of progressive actions intended to cause your foe to assume a less-than-favorable defensive stance. It typically represents a change in gaze, rhythm, stance, etc., intended to throw off your rival's timing and/or preparation. It need not involve a fake attack; in fact, it often involves not attacking when your opponent expects you to do so. If you glance at his hand, twitch, and half-turn, and he startles and breaks his rhythm, then you gain the advantage, because you're controlling what he's doing. If he reads you better and calmly continues what he's doing . . . well, you've accomplished nothing.

Deceptive Attack is a single action that -- in the time it takes for a blow to fall -- eludes your opponent's defense and results in him being hit. It typically represents an attack that's too fast to evade, that comes from an unexpected angle, and/or that changes target mid-execution to bypass a defensive reaction. However, it's an actual attack, and if not blocked, dodged, or parried, it will land. The target knows you're not faking . . . if he doesn't react, he'll be hit.

That's clear. What's unclear is how to specifically fake an attack, as opposed to lower enemy defense.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Molokh

That's clear. What's unclear is how to specifically fake an attack, as opposed to lower enemy defense.

Maybe float the bonus of your combat skill to Acting?

Roll it as an attack, but declare that you intend to miss/do no damage?

I think you'd have to adjudicate this one as a special case.


Of course, if you goal is to MISS, then it starts to sound a lot like a Feint again.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Molokh

That's clear. What's unclear is how to specifically fake an attack, as opposed to lower enemy defense.

"Fake an attack" might be one of several things that goes one when you take a Feint maneuver or do a Deceptive Attack. The goal there is to lower enemy defense. The specific mechanism for doing so, though, is abstracted. It might involve angle, gaze, speed, stance, timing, and a dozen other things. The game doesn't get into the specifics. "Feint" and "Deceptive Attack" are the irreducibles. You can hand-wave and make up whatever special effects you like for successful and unsuccessful attempts at these moves.

"Fake an attack" for a goal other than to lower enemy defense seems like a weird thing to do. If you want to do it anyway, I'm with Doug: make an Acting roll or something. :P

In game terms, there are only three types of attack:

1. Those that hit.
2. Those that miss because you failed your attack roll.
3. Those that miss because your opponent made his defense roll.

For Auras and the like, only #1 matters. "I faked" isn't a valid fourth class under the rules. It's always ends up looking no different from #2 or #3, depending on your acting skills. If you want to use a fake to provoke and "use up" an active defense, then that's just an attack figured the usual way where you pull your punch to zero damage.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kromm

"Fake an attack" might be one of several things that goes one when you take a Feint maneuver or do a Deceptive Attack. The goal there is to lower enemy defense. The specific mechanism for doing so, though, is abstracted. It might involve angle, gaze, speed, stance, timing, and a dozen other things. The game doesn't get into the specifics. "Feint" and "Deceptive Attack" are the irreducibles. You can hand-wave and make up whatever special effects you like for successful and unsuccessful attempts at these moves.

"Fake an attack" for a goal other than to lower enemy defense seems like a weird thing to do. If you want to do it anyway, I'm with Doug: make an Acting roll or something. :P

In game terms, there are only three types of attack:

1. Those that hit.
2. Those that miss because you failed your attack roll.
3. Those that miss because your opponent made his defense roll.

For Auras and the like, only #1 matters. "I faked" isn't a valid fourth class under the rules. It's always ends up looking no different from #2 or #3, depending on your acting skills. If you want to use a fake to provoke and "use up" an active defense, then that's just an attack figured the usual way where you pull your punch to zero damage.

But with zero damage I still make contact, even if the enemy doesn't parry. Can I also voluntarily make sure the attack misses?