ST-Based Skills

[ericthered]

I agree with the folks talking about relative ST. ST usually matters only when compared to the Strength of others. I like to divide both ST by the lower of the two Strengths and then multiply by 10. The low strength guy is then rolling against 10, and the high strength guy rolling against something higher (where most gurps rolls happen).



Also, Kromm's answer is awesome and I agree with it 100%.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I agree with the folks talking about relative ST. ST usually matters only when compared to the Strength of others. I like to divide both ST by the lower of the two Strengths and then multiply by 10. The low strength guy is then rolling against 10, and the high strength guy rolling against something higher (where most gurps rolls happen).



Also, Kromm's answer is awesome and I agree with it 100%.

https://gamingballistic.com/2013/01/...olls-must-die/

ST rolls must die

One of my first blog articles (I started GB in Dec 2012) was basically a retread of Sean's answer above. I'm a big fan of ST (included in GURPS) to weight (not really an important thing in GURPS) ratios giving bonuses to things.

In a notional new edition or something that takes the GURPS concepts and does my own thing with them, I'd probably have a core component of the game be purchase either mass-based-HP directly, and then ST can vary around that (so your ST costs based on your ST/HP ratio) or something like it. Having that ST/HP ratio (and both ST and HP being on the same scale) provide a modifier to stuff has much appeal in at least a design methodology; whether it can be made to work in play is unknown.

[FenrisLoki]

Originally Posted by Kromm

....
DX, IQ, HT, Will, and Per are essentially intrinsic quantities.
....

ST, HP, FP, and Basic Move are essentially extrinsic quantities. ST and HP can grow indefinitely large with a being's siz
,....

An intrinsic variable versus extrinsic variable discussion that I can use to teach this to my physics students! At least the ones who are gamers! I love it!!!

[RyanW]

I do use a logarithmic ST scale based on Know Your Own Strength, where rolling against ST actually makes sense - even the odd ST-based skill roll will work. But even then, it's always a situation where it is all about whether you can apply sufficient force. ST-vs-ST contests work the way they are supposed to without any special rules. Any sort of passive resistance (say, a barred door the hero needs to force) has a sort of THAC0: If ST 13 should have a 50% chance of succeeding, roll ST-3. If ST 25 should, roll ST-15.

[AlexanderHowl]

I do not agree that ST:Mass ratio should give any particular bonus. My fiancée is one-third of my mass but one-half of my strength, it does not give her an advantage when we wrestle or anything. What bonuses do you think she should receive in contests against me?

[Infornific]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I do not agree that ST:Mass ratio should give any particular bonus. My fiancée is one-third of my mass but one-half of my strength, it does not give her an advantage when we wrestle or anything. What bonuses do you think she should receive in contests against me?

A high ST to mass ratio should lead to greater agility, speed and move. For a simple GURPS fudge, that's a justification for higher DX. If you want to get fussier, I'd recommend checking out Tbone's GURPS Gulliver. There's a short 4e PDF here focusing on big and little creatures but the effects of high and low power to mass ratios can be extrapolated. The old 3e version is also available which has a much more detailed discussion.

[tbone]

Originally Posted by Infornific

A high ST to mass ratio should lead to greater agility, speed and move.

Yeah, it's a fun effect. It's why cats and squirrels and monkeys are so fast and – for lack of a better word – athletic. And it's why Spiderman moves like, well, Spiderman.

Applying specific effects for exact levels of power-to-weight is good stuff for simulation – though it's not entirely meaningful in a game where stats can be adjusted on a whim anyway. (That is, the simu-riffic goodness of giving a creature specific mods to traits X and Y, for its exact power-to-weight ratio of Z, gets lost a little when you can arbitrarily call the creature DX 6 or DX 16 before the mods, or toss in some Enhanced Move or none at all, as you like.)

In the end, all you really need to do is roughly eyeball that "Is this thing ponderous like a hippo, or agile like a cat?" factor, and apply some adjustments that feel right. But, if you do that fairly consistently, perhaps even using some written guidelines, you get slates of creatures that "feel" real.

I always look askance a little at giant creatures listed as having DX 14, high Dodge, etc. It's not wrong, especially for a fantasy creature, but far less agile stats give the right feel, and will better match the expectations of tactically-minded players. (Of course, there will always be surprise exceptions...)

But anyway, to tie this directly to the thread topic: While I'm not a proponent of any basing any skills directly on ST, it certainly makes sense that some physical abilities would be affected by both skill and ST. Specifically, these would be athletic skills, melee skills, and other skills calling on general agility. Which, in GURPS, is handled easily enough by using RAW DX-based skills, but adjusting DX a bit for that eyeballed "power-to-weight" factor.

[dataweaver]

I'd also recommend looking at Technical Grappling's Trained Attributes for cases where there should be interaction between a skill and one of the “extrinsic” attributes that Dr. Kromm mentioned. (Virtually?) All ST-and-skill interactions are better handled in this manner than by ST-based skill rolls; but I could also see an upgrade of the Running skill that gives you Trained Move, for example (though the rules would need some tweaking to account for Move being centered on 5 rather than 10); and I'd definitely consider reworking Jumping to provide Trained Move instead of the current rules, with Jumping rolls being used for accuracy rather than distance. Also, Bicycling.

I could also see something like this replacing the existing rules for skills providing damage bonuses (e.g., Forced Entry and Karate): calculate damage based on your Trained ST instead of your regular ST.

[tbone]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I do not agree that ST:Mass ratio should give any particular bonus. My fiancée is one-third of my mass but one-half of my strength, it does not give her an advantage when we wrestle or anything. What bonuses do you think she should receive in contests against me?

The question would be: Particular bonus to what?

Wrestling? I wouldn't expect a bonus either, if the task at hand is just a match of power vs power to force a takedown, etc.

But how about acrobatics? If person A has a little less strength than person B, but a lot less mass to toss about, I would definitely expect person A to be better at acrobatics (all else being equal).

[dataweaver]

I'm partial to the notion of Speed being reformulated as an intrinsic attribute (and used as the basis for a number of agility-like skills) while Move remains an extrinsic attribute that's derived from Speed and SM. ST-to-Mass issues could then be subsumed into Speed (with high ST-to-Mass possibly being represented by a high Speed).