Equivalent TL

maximara · 12-06-2018, 10:15 AM

GURPS Fantasy introduced the idea of Equivalent TL and ugh it is a bit of a mess.

"Look at a number of commonly used spells, assign them to approximate TL equivalents, and see if these cluster around one or two TLs as usually defined; if so, use a rough equivalent TL in that range. If that doesn’t work, the TL concept may not fit the setting. (...) Settings with magically based TL ratings are effectively alternative histories, where the point of departure is the invention of reliable magic."

But "magic" can also include superscience as it also involves the violation of accepted physical laws. So you can have the above method say one thing about the TL but it is actually something different.

For example, take Etheria where limited manned interplanetary exists. This is normally TL9 but the world is actual TL(5+1)^ (etheric spacecraft, TL5^) or 3 to 4 TLs below what would be "normal". Then there is Britannica-5 which has antimatter bombs which would be normally TL10 but the world is TL5^ or 5 TLs below what the production of antimatter would suggest.

So do we have ETL in addition to the TL of a setting? Would a TL9 navigator be able to use his skill navigation (space) with only a -2 penalty on Etheria since it effectively has TL9 (manned interplanetary space flight) or would he be dealing with the difference in the actual TL?

naloth · 12-06-2018, 01:36 PM

Back when I used to do inter-dimensional travel to places with different TLs and different physical laws, I handled all defaults from the point of divergence.

Meaning that if everything TL5 and below works relatively the same, but everything after TL5 is completely different, you'll suffer as though you are trying to use a high TL skill at a lower TL <or> you'll default using what "local" knowledge you've picked up.

Even that seems a touch generous. Relying on "what you know" where the physical laws are completely different may be worse than being ignorant.

maximara · 12-06-2018, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naloth

Back when I used to do inter-dimensional travel to places with different TLs and different physical laws, I handled all defaults from the point of divergence.

Meaning that if everything TL5 and below works relatively the same, but everything after TL5 is completely different, you'll suffer as though you are trying to use a high TL skill at a lower TL <or> you'll default using what "local" knowledge you've picked up.

Even that seems a touch generous. Relying on "what you know" where the physical laws are completely different may be worse than being ignorant.

I agree with the "physical laws are completely different" part but the above seems to have issues with divergent technology. Go back to Etheria for a moment. In terms of space travel aren't they at ETL TL(5+4) rather then TL5^? Better yet what would TL(5+4) based on superscience look like compared to "pure" TL9 compared to TL5^?

AlexanderHowl · 12-06-2018, 05:37 PM

TL(5+4) would have a lot of steam. Now, that does not necessarily mean that you would have a coal powered society (coal is just a source of heat for steam), just that the focus would be on applications of steam. Such a society would also have corresponding advances in machines.

A TL(5+4) society could use fusion to product the steam required for a modern city. Advanced insulation would allow steam to travel throughout a modern city, allowing massive fusion power plants to supply the energy needs of an entire city, and the steam would be collected for drinking water through massive cooling stations. Heat and moisture would be ever present themes, so materials would need to be heat and corrosion resistant, meaning that such a society would likely go into space to mine the asteroids for platinum group metals, copper, and tin. Lighting would depend on burning materials, likely metals, which would be recycled after use.

David Johnston2 · 12-06-2018, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

TL(5+4) would have a lot of steam.

No. It might but it would not have to. For example imagine a setting where Jean Baptist Lamarck invents a superscience breakthrough in biotechnology so that a century and a half later people are flying around in living airships, and going to war in bipedal biomecha. Such a place does go off at a tangent at TL 5 but that doesn't mean they're any more inclined to use steam engines than we are.

scc · 12-06-2018, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

No. It might but it would have to. For example imagine a setting where Jean Baptist Lamarck invents a superscience breakthrough in biotechnology so that a century and a half later people are flying around in living airships, and going to war in bipedal biomecha. Such a place does go off at a tangent at TL 5 but that doesn't mean they're any more inclined to use steam engines than we are.

Given that at TL5 they actually used hydraulics to power home appliances that is also an option.

naloth · 12-06-2018, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara

I agree with the "physical laws are completely different" part but the above seems to have issues with divergent technology. Go back to Etheria for a moment. In terms of space travel aren't they at ETL TL(5+4) rather then TL5^? Better yet what would TL(5+4) based on superscience look like compared to "pure" TL9 compared to TL5^?

I've run across the notation in two ways.

Are you suggesting they are:
1) effectively TL9, but post TL5 they followed progress that gave them similar stuff but it works completely differently (probably because reality of that world is different).
2) TL5 with a bit of "weird" TL9 sprinkled around. Steampunk with space travel ala British Space (old game) where you could sail through the stars like sailing across the sky or seas. Space actually consisted of a medium (ether) rather than a vacuum.

The only real question is if TL8 engineer from our Earth works on it as if it's a TL5/6 design or if he's working on a TL9 ether engine that is so strange that he doesn't have any better clue how it would work than a TL5 guy normally would on a TL9 engine. Either way, I'd treat the familiarity from the point of tech divergence.

maximara · 12-07-2018, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

TL(5+4) would have a lot of steam. Now, that does not necessarily mean that you would have a coal powered society (coal is just a source of heat for steam), just that the focus would be on applications of steam. Such a society would also have corresponding advances in machines.

You seem to be forgetting about Split TLs which when you get right down to it doesn't really make much sense when it comes to superscience techs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by naloth

I've run across the notation in two ways.

Are you suggesting they are:
1) effectively TL9, but post TL5 they followed progress that gave them similar stuff but it works completely differently (probably because reality of that world is different).
2) TL5 with a bit of "weird" TL9 sprinkled around. Steampunk with space travel ala British Space (old game) where you could sail through the stars like sailing across the sky or seas. Space actually consisted of a medium (ether) rather than a vacuum.

The only real question is if TL8 engineer from our Earth works on it as if it's a TL5/6 design or if he's working on a TL9 ether engine that is so strange that he doesn't have any better clue how it would work than a TL5 guy normally would on a TL9 engine. Either way, I'd treat the familiarity from the point of tech divergence.

Let's use a canonal example: Cyrano. It is a TL(5+4) (space travel, TL4^). Since as written someone in the setting going between "normal" and space tech would suffer huge penalties the "TL4^" is not the ETL of the setting...rather it is TL(5+4) which is in keeping with what is said on B513.

Yes is would effect something like Engineer but Navigation (space) is also a TL skill so how well would a Navigation (space)/TL9 be able to function?

naloth · 12-07-2018, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara

Yes is would effect something like Engineer but Navigation (space) is also a TL skill so how well would a Navigation (space)/TL9 be able to function?

That depends on if the same navigation techniques even work.

First off, I'd suggest that TL9 nav relies on TL9 tools. If the only things they can come up with are the TL4 equivalents, then they are effectively functioning at TL4. If they can somewhat use the TL9 tools available, then it's just a familiarity penalty.

If the physics are completely different or special (different types of FTL, space is has different properties, perhaps even "speed lanes"), that's more familiarity penalties.

12-06-2018, 10:15 AM	#1
maximara On Notice Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Sumter, SC	Equivalent TL GURPS Fantasy introduced the idea of Equivalent TL and ugh it is a bit of a mess. "Look at a number of commonly used spells, assign them to approximate TL equivalents, and see if these cluster around one or two TLs as usually defined; if so, use a rough equivalent TL in that range. If that doesn’t work, the TL concept may not fit the setting. (...) Settings with magically based TL ratings are effectively alternative histories, where the point of departure is the invention of reliable magic." But "magic" can also include superscience as it also involves the violation of accepted physical laws. So you can have the above method say one thing about the TL but it is actually something different. For example, take Etheria where limited manned interplanetary exists. This is normally TL9 but the world is actual TL(5+1)^ (etheric spacecraft, TL5^) or 3 to 4 TLs below what would be "normal". Then there is Britannica-5 which has antimatter bombs which would be normally TL10 but the world is TL5^ or 5 TLs below what the production of antimatter would suggest. So do we have ETL in addition to the TL of a setting? Would a TL9 navigator be able to use his skill navigation (space) with only a -2 penalty on Etheria since it effectively has TL9 (manned interplanetary space flight) or would he be dealing with the difference in the actual TL? Last edited by maximara; 12-06-2018 at 10:32 AM.

12-06-2018, 01:36 PM	#2
naloth Join Date: Sep 2004	Re: Equivalent TL Back when I used to do inter-dimensional travel to places with different TLs and different physical laws, I handled all defaults from the point of divergence. Meaning that if everything TL5 and below works relatively the same, but everything after TL5 is completely different, you'll suffer as though you are trying to use a high TL skill at a lower TL <or> you'll default using what "local" knowledge you've picked up. Even that seems a touch generous. Relying on "what you know" where the physical laws are completely different may be worse than being ignorant.

12-06-2018, 05:37 PM	#4
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Equivalent TL TL(5+4) would have a lot of steam. Now, that does not necessarily mean that you would have a coal powered society (coal is just a source of heat for steam), just that the focus would be on applications of steam. Such a society would also have corresponding advances in machines. A TL(5+4) society could use fusion to product the steam required for a modern city. Advanced insulation would allow steam to travel throughout a modern city, allowing massive fusion power plants to supply the energy needs of an entire city, and the steam would be collected for drinking water through massive cooling stations. Heat and moisture would be ever present themes, so materials would need to be heat and corrosion resistant, meaning that such a society would likely go into space to mine the asteroids for platinum group metals, copper, and tin. Lighting would depend on burning materials, likely metals, which would be recycled after use.