Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > In Nomine

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-20-2012, 12:44 AM   #21
Acolyte
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Seattle
Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

Mostly I agree with dataweaver's points. Determining what's appropriate for a stage would be a target of the test--I'd be fine with 20/40 to start.

I myself don't like the nerfed Vessels, although it is for a cinematic, not mechanical reason (I like celestials taking bullets and giant stab wounds and continuing to fight, even though it prolongs combat between celestials). I am however aware that I view IN as being more cinematic than most.

Are you backpedaling from the Resource levels described in the OP and going with the IN traditional Resource points?
__________________
“The world is going to Hell in a hand-basket, but I’ve got Good News: I saved my soul by switching to Heaven.”
—Baruel, former Djinn of the Media, now Cherub of Destiny and the Angel of Good News
Acolyte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2012, 10:09 PM   #22
Archangel Beth
In Nomine Line Editor
 
Archangel Beth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Frozen Wastelands of NH
Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

Yeah, dataweaver (I think it was?) made a decent case that it would be reasonable enough -- and certainly simpler -- to just decouple Resource points from Forces, and use the old IN costs for Resources.

Hm. Vessels. There's the nerfing option from the GMG. There's the initial GIN Ultra-Lite verision...
Quote:
Vessels have 8 hit points + Corporeal Forces; additional HP costs 1 level per increment. HP in other realms = Int, Will; additional HP in that realm costs 1 level per increment.
Humans automatically get HP equal to Str; additional HP costs 1 level per increment.
If we do this version, it'd be very nerfed... A slightly less-nerfed version would be Str+Corp Forces hit points (so 15, additional HP at... Y points per HP?) Or go back to Vessel/1-6 Levels... But I think if we stick multiplication in there (e.g., Vessel*CorpForces), it's could get hairy fast. Good for cinematic, but kind of tedious for when you just want to DRIVE THE VAN OVER THE **** BALSERAPH ALREADY.

If we're doing 40 points for resources, then HP at 1 or 2 points per level (bought individually per realm, and individually per vessel) might be useful...

Or, oh, wait, what about Fixed Number plus (Vessel Level times Corp Forces) and leave Str out of it for non-humans? So if Corp 1, Vessel 1 = 1... Fixed Number = 8? Or, doh, let's make it 6, just like the baseline for characteristics. So that'd be...

Corp 1, Vessel 1 = 7 HP. Sucks to be you, K.K.
Corp 1, Vessel 2-6= 8,9,10,11,12 HP.
Corp 2, V/1-6 = 8,10,12,14,16,18 HP.
Corp 3, V/1-6 = 9,12,15,18,21,23 HP
Corp 4, V/1-6 = 10,14,18,22,26,30 HP
Corp 5, V/1-6 = 11,16,21,26,31,36 HP
Corp 6, V/1-6 = 12,18,24,30,36,42 HP

Is that too wimpy on the extreme end? Should we make it (Corp*Vessel)+Str? That'd work out to...
Corp 1, V/1-6, Str 8 = 9,10,11,12,13,14
Corp 2, V/1-6, Str 10 = 12,14,16,18,20,22
Corp 3, V/1-6, Str 12 = 15,18,21,24,27,30
Corp 4, V/1-6, Str 14 = 18,22,26,30,34,38
Corp 5, V/1-6, Str 16 = 21,26,31,36,41,46
Corp 6, V/1-6, Str 18 = 24,30,36,42,48,54

Low level vessels are still going to be comparatively fragile; reasonable, with the fairly large Resource point pool? Because they can just buy heftier vessels? The max isn't likely to be the 144 hit points that IN already has, but... that's kinda a lot anyway. >_>

(I suppose if we wanted to get really big numbers for celestials again, it could be Str*CorpForces, ditch vessel levels (you buy a vessel for X points, and can stick Charisma on it), and that'd max out at 6*18=108. Or add vessel levels for a max of 114? It's late; maf is hard.)

Now, suppose we do Str+Corp for humans? (Allowing the purchase of X extra hit points, where X doesn't feel too silly...) A 2/2/1 spread, Str 10, would have 12 hit points. A 3/1/1 thug could have 15 HP.

Or we could just do Str, if we want to tone down humans (!), which would do 10 HP for starters, HP 12 (or all the way up to 16-18?) for a mundane mook.
__________________
--Beth
Shamelessly adding Superiors: Lilith, GURPS Sparrials, and her fiction page to her .sig (the latter is not precisely gaming related)
Archangel Beth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2012, 01:44 PM   #23
Rocket Man
Petitioner: Word of IN Filk
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Longmont, CO
Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangel Beth View Post
\The max isn't likely to be the 144 hit points that IN already has, but... that's kinda a lot anyway. >_>
Agreed; at that level, IN begins to feel like Street Fighter: "I hit him again! And again! And again! .... um, what's the button combination for 'Smite' again?"
__________________
“It's not railroading if you offer the PCs tickets and they stampede to the box office, waving their money. Metaphorically speaking”
--Elizabeth McCoy, In Nomine Line Editor

Author: "What Doesn't Kill Me Makes Me Stronger"
Rocket Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2012, 07:01 PM   #24
dataweaver
 
dataweaver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archangel Beth View Post
Yeah, dataweaver (I think it was?) made a decent case that it would be reasonable enough -- and certainly simpler -- to just decouple Resource points from Forces, and use the old IN costs for Resources.

Hm. Vessels. There's the nerfing option from the GMG.
To clarify: Total Forces + Corporeal Forces + Strength + 5×Vessel. Of course, those rules assumed that Strength would be in the 2-12 range, whereas we're dealing with Strength in the 8-18 range; so how about we keep Strength in play, and do away with the Total Forces kludge?

Likewise, instead of Vessels giving 5 × Vessel additional Body Hits, have them give you (2 × Corporeal Forces × Vessel) Body Hits. So:

Strength + Corp Forces + 2 × Vessel × Corp Forces
1 Corp/8 Str/0-6 Vessel: 9/11/13/15/17/19/21 Body Hits
2 Corp/10 Str/0-6 Vessel: 12/16/20/24/28/32/36 Body Hits
3 Corp/12 Str/0-6 Vessel: 15/21/27/33/39/45/51 Body Hits
4 Corp/14 Str/0-6 Vessel: 18/26/34/42/50/58/66 Body Hits
5 Corp/16 Str/0-6 Vessel: 21/31/41/51/61/71/81 Body Hits
6 Corp/18 Str/0-6 Vessel: 24/36/48/60/72/84/96 Body Hits

Baseline human: 2 Corp/10 Str/0 Vessel: 12 Body Hits.
Baseline celestial: 3 Corp/12 Str/3 Vessel: 33 Body Hits.

In comparison, normal IN rules would give us:

(Corp Forces + Vessel) × Strength
1 Corp/2 Str/0-6 Vessel: 2/4/6/8/10/12/14 Body Hits
2 Corp/4 Str/0-6 Vessel: 8/12/16/20/24/28/32 Body Hits
3 Corp/6 Str/0-6 Vessel: 18/24/30/36/42/48/56 Body Hits
4 Corp/8 Str/0-6 Vessel: 32/40/48/56/64/72/80 Body Hits
5 Corp/10 Str/0-6 Vessel: 50/60/70/80/90/100/110 Body Hits
6 Corp/12 Str/0-6 Vessel: 72/84/96/108/120/132/144 Body Hits

Baseline human: 2 Corp/4 Str/0 Vessel: 8 Body Hits.
Baseline Celestial: 3 Corp/6 Str/3 Vessel: 36 Body Hits.

And the GMG option would give us:

Total Forces + Corp Forces + Strength + 5 × Vessel
1 Corp/2 Str/0-6 Vessel: 12/17/22/27/32/37/42 Body Hits
2 Corp/4 Str/0-6 Vessel: 15/20/25/30/35/40/45 Body Hits
3 Corp/6 Str/0-6 Vessel: 18/23/28/33/38/43/48 Body Hits
4 Corp/8 Str/0-6 Vessel: 21/26/31/36/41/46/51 Body Hits
5 Corp/10 Str/0-6 Vessel: 24/29/34/39/44/49/54 Body Hits
6 Corp/12 Str/0-6 Vessel: 27/32/37/42/47/52/57 Body Hits

Baseline human: 2 Corp/4 Str/0 Vessel: 11 Body Hits.
Baseline Celestial: 3 Corp/6 Str/3 Vessel: 33 Body Hits.

Last edited by dataweaver; 04-22-2012 at 08:38 PM.
dataweaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2012, 09:24 PM   #25
Acolyte
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Seattle
Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

dataweaver, I like the first set that you have there--good numbers, and I don't mind "cutting off the top of the scale" as it were--with your average celestial still takes triple the damage of your average human, which has plenty of room for cinematic schticks.

At this risk of opening an ugly debate, for this to really be a Rules Lite IN (we seem to have moved nearly fully from GURPS), something has to be done about disturbance. It seems to get pretty heavily houseruled.

I think at the very least, the Perception of the listener should be removed from the calculation of range increment, since this potentially forces a GM to calculate that range increment for each PC or NPC who might conceivably hear it. There's a GMG variant for that, I believe, but reviewing several "house rules" threads (here, here, and here), it's clear that most people opt for a handwave approach, somewhere on a scale of "if you need to hear it, you hear it" to "roll Perception with a penalty or bonus chosen by the GM". For my own games, I have two modifier tracks, distance and size of disturbance, and add the two modifiers together to get a modifier for a Perception roll--thus slashing the whole notion of individual notes of disturbance in favor of categories (minute, minor, moderate, significant, severe, and epic could be a list, with low-Degree-of-Disturbance Songs falling into minor, shooting a human in the head severe, and going celestial moderate, with epic reserved for an ongoing battle or the arrive of a Superior who wants to be recognized). This "category" approach to disturbance seems in the spirit of Rules-Lite-ness. I can provide my table if you wish.

Other than that, what other aspects of the rules need to be hammered out pre-playtest?
__________________
“The world is going to Hell in a hand-basket, but I’ve got Good News: I saved my soul by switching to Heaven.”
—Baruel, former Djinn of the Media, now Cherub of Destiny and the Angel of Good News

Last edited by Acolyte; 04-30-2012 at 10:33 PM.
Acolyte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2012, 09:45 PM   #26
dataweaver
 
dataweaver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

I think that the BAD penalty from GURPS Action should be standard fare for this thing: whenever possible, go with a single GM-ruled penalty instead of an accumulation of circumstance-based individual modifiers. That goes for Perception checks (including checks to detect Disturbance) just as much as it does for anything else. Anything beyond that should be taken as loose suggestions for GMs who need some guidance.
dataweaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 01:57 AM   #27
Acolyte
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Seattle
Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

Quote:
Originally Posted by dataweaver View Post
I think that the BAD penalty from GURPS Action should be standard fare for this thing: whenever possible, go with a single GM-ruled penalty instead of an accumulation of circumstance-based individual modifiers. That goes for Perception checks (including checks to detect Disturbance) just as much as it does for anything else. Anything beyond that should be taken as loose suggestions for GMs who need some guidance.
I don't know the rule you mention, care to explain? I think I know what you mean (the standard "rather than add all possible circumstantial bonuses and then subtract all such penalties, the GM assigns a rough difficulty and then fiats a composite bonus or penalty as appropriate"), but it's never wise to make assumptions.
__________________
“The world is going to Hell in a hand-basket, but I’ve got Good News: I saved my soul by switching to Heaven.”
—Baruel, former Djinn of the Media, now Cherub of Destiny and the Angel of Good News
Acolyte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 02:04 AM   #28
dataweaver
 
dataweaver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

From Action 2: Exploits.
A simple-but-effective way to challenge the heroes is to use skill penalties. Many tasks in the Basic Set and Exploits recommend a wide variety of penalties to cover less-than-ideal conditions, exceptionally tough opposition, etc. Looking up and assessing these penalties can be time-consuming, however. When the team is poised to blow the vault door or raid the villain’s mansion, it’s boring and frustrating for things to grind to a halt while the GM consults rules and tallies modifiers.

As an alternative to detailed modifiers, the GM can set a single difficulty – the Basic Abstract Difficulty (BAD) – that covers all aspects of a particular phase of the adventure. This is simply a penalty from 0 to -10 that replaces detailed situational modifiers. The only other modifiers that apply are those that the PCs bring into the picture: bonuses for equipment, penalties for disadvantages, etc.
There's a bit more to it, but that's the heart of the matter.
dataweaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 01:05 PM   #29
Archangel Beth
In Nomine Line Editor
 
Archangel Beth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Frozen Wastelands of NH
Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

Or, to paraphrase...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wing It!

In Nomine is often best when running smoothly, without a lot of rule-checking. The GM is encouraged to assign bonuses and penalties as consistently as possible -- but not to insist on perfection! If you happen to remember a suggested penalty or prior ruling, use it. Otherwise, go with what feels right for the situation. Some suggested penalties: -1 for a minor impediment; -3 for a distinct, but mild impediment; -5 for something to make an expert sweat a little; -7 to make anyone but the experts need luck; -10 to rule out all but the extremely skilled and gifted.

For GMs just starting out, see a number of suggested penalties and bonuses in {{name of a box}} on p. 00.

(I wanted to use "On a Wing and a Prayer" but that feels more like spending Essence for skill boosts or something...)
__________________
--Beth
Shamelessly adding Superiors: Lilith, GURPS Sparrials, and her fiction page to her .sig (the latter is not precisely gaming related)
Archangel Beth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2012, 05:09 PM   #30
dataweaver
 
dataweaver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: GIN Ultra-Lite

And as I've mentioned before, don't assume that situational modifiers can be added together: some impediments overlap, such that the cumulative effect isn't as severe as adding the modifiers together would imply; and other impediments compound the problems so that the sum is greater than the parts. Given this, eyeballing the overall situation and assigning single penalty is potentially more accurate than adding up individual modifiers as well as being faster.

The only downside is that eyeballing it takes practice; thus, the suggested modifiers for GMs who are just starting out. And even there, I'd recommend a guideline of only looking at the most significant one or two factors involved.

I wouldn't mind seeing this in a d666-based IN2e as well – though of course the guidelines would need to be compressed to account for the narrower range of results that two dice offer.
dataweaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
gurps in nomine, gurps ultra-lite, house rules

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.