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Old 09-17-2007, 01:54 PM   #11
Kromm
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

No, I'm right and the book is imprecise. We clarified this greatly in Martial Arts: "Each level of the Extra Attack advantage gives one additional attack per All-Out Attack, Attack, Committed Attack, Defensive Attack, or Move and Attack maneuver. Extra Attack benefits only those maneuvers." Also: "A fighter . . . can't sacrifice attacks to perform tasks covered by other maneuvers. He cannot make multiple posture changes . . . hastily Ready an unready weapon . . . count his turn as more than one second of Concentrate, or Aim or Evaluate on a turn when he attacks." In short, Extra Attack is one extra attack roll on your turn when you take an offensive maneuver. It isn't an extra Attack maneuver.
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Old 09-17-2007, 02:32 PM   #12
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

Nothing but love for you, Kromm. But:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
It isn't an extra Attack maneuver.
That directly contradicts the book. The book explicitly states the exact opposite. And, I hate to say, it is very precise. It states Extra Attack is just that: an extra Attack maneuver. You can argue with me until we're both blue in the fingers, but the RAW is opposite what you're saying.

That desperatly needs both Eratta and FAQ. That is a crippling flaw in the wording as it changes both the use and rules for the advantage.
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Old 09-17-2007, 03:06 PM   #13
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

Hmm... All praise to Kromm, and all that, but I'm afraid I must disagree with him. While he of all people should know the intent, the wording contradicts this intent. There is no mention in Basic Set that the 'additional attack per turn' can only be made during a turn in which a standard one is made. Clearing it up in Martial Arts is all very well and good, but it leaves people without Martial Arts (and who don't read the forums regularly) with false impressions. So, can we see some Errata-fu here?
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Old 09-17-2007, 05:00 PM   #14
Mark Skarr
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

By your new definition, Kromm, that means that the great dragon with Extra Attack +4 can't attack your face off as he readies his breath weapon.

I have no problem with not being able to use Extra Attack on turns where you All-Out Defend, or even aim/evaluate (unless you have extra tracking). But, there is no reason you should have to make your normal action be an attack maneuver to get the benefit from Extra Attack.

And, honestly, I think there should be a limitation, not a complete change to the listed advantage. -25% or so if you don't get an extra attack maneuver, only an extra attack when you make a normal attack.
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Old 09-17-2007, 05:22 PM   #15
Kromm
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

Well . . . the next time I'm asked for errata for a new printing, I'll add this one. The wording in the Basic Set is wrong. The only way to get an extra maneuver in GURPS is via Altered Time Rate or spell effects (like Great Haste) that emulate it. There are lots of ways to gain extra actions (small-a attacks, small-f feints, etc.) -- including Dual-Weapon Attack, Extra Attack, and Rapid Strike for attacks and feints, and Fast-Draw rolls for readying things -- but these don't add maneuvers. Maneuvers have an action component, a movement component, and a defense component. While it's fine to add extra actions, adding the entire maneuver gets crazy. (And why on earth would one ready a breath weapon, anyway? Attack abilities explicitly don't need readying.)

And a word to the wise: telling me "It's written that way, so that's how it is, and what you're saying is wrong" is like smucking your head on stone. I wrote the words, so I know better than you what I meant. I freely admit that I can be wrong in writing! Once I've decided I was wrong, the written words become wrong. They'll get changed in future printings, and eventually show up in an errata sheet, so you can elect to ignore them until then if you wish . . . but that doesn't make me wrong until then. It just means that you're choosing to ignore me, which is fine but not the same thing. :)
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Old 09-17-2007, 06:24 PM   #16
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookman
Kromm has opined on this one in the past. In short, not the same thing -- as Rogue says.
Okay, I've read the discussion you cite.

It seems to me it works kind of poorly for thrown weapons. Say I take Extra Attack for 25 points. Now I ready a rock, which takes one turn, and I throw it, which takes one attack of the next turn—and I can't throw another rock, not even with the other hand, because I can only ready one rock? In effect, that makes Extra Attack worthless if I apply it to throwing things.

Or I can take turn one to ready a rock in my right hand, turn two to ready one in my left hand, and turn three to throw both? That's gone from two rocks thrown in four turns to two rocks thrown in three turns. I used to be able to throw three rocks in six turns; now I can throw four. That's only one-third of an extra attack.

Or I buy Extra Attack and Extra Ready. Now I actually have doubled my rate of fire—but for 50 points, not 25. The point cost seems excessive for throwing things.

Conversely, say that I take Extra Attack and Extra Ready, and my main weapons are a rapier and main-gauche. I've spent 50 points to be able to arm myself fully in one turn and strike with both the next turn. But the extra ready isn't worth nearly as much, I don't think; I'll strike every turn in melee, but I won't draw weapons nearly as often as that, unless I'm a total klutz.

In either case, it seems that at a minimum Extra Ready ought to cost significantly less than Extra Attack, if it's allowed at all.

As a side question, what about Extra Parry? If I can have an advantage that lets me attack with weapon A and with weapon B, can I have an advantage that lets me parry with both? That one might actually be WORTH 25 points!

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Old 09-17-2007, 06:58 PM   #17
Peter V. Dell'Orto
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs
It seems to me it works kind of poorly for thrown weapons. Say I take Extra Attack for 25 points. Now I ready a rock, which takes one turn, and I throw it, which takes one attack of the next turn—and I can't throw another rock, not even with the other hand, because I can only ready one rock? In effect, that makes Extra Attack worthless if I apply it to throwing things.
Check GURPS Martial Arts, specifically pages 119-121 for its options like Rapid Strike with Thrown Weapons and Rapid Fire with Thrown Weapons. Also check out the rules for multiple fast-draws on page 103. They are tailor-made for what you're ultimately trying to accomplish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs
As a side question, what about Extra Parry? If I can have an advantage that lets me attack with weapon A and with weapon B, can I have an advantage that lets me parry with both? That one might actually be WORTH 25 points!
You'd pay 25 points for one extra parry at -0 and call that worth 25 points? You can buy Trained By A Master and half your parry penalty from -4 to -2, or -2 to -1 for fencing weapons, for 30 points...and get lots of benefits on top of that. Or Weapon Master (two weapons, for main gauche and rapier) for 25, for the same parry benefit.

Maybe you're thinking of something different than I am. You already are talking a two-weapon fighter with two fencing weapons, so you've got two "counts" down from -0 parry to defend yourself. With TBAM and Combat Reflexes and a good skill you should be able to defend with near-maximum skill as many times as you can reasonably be attacked. I run a game with a TBAM fencer with Combat Reflexes and Enhanced Parry 1. I've seen her attacked successfully 7 times in a turn and only "sweat" that last parry at a mere 12-13 or so.
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Old 09-17-2007, 07:06 PM   #18
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs
It seems to me it works kind of poorly for thrown weapons. Say I take Extra Attack for 25 points. Now I ready a rock, which takes one turn, and I throw it, which takes one attack of the next turn—and I can't throw another rock, not even with the other hand, because I can only ready one rock? In effect, that makes Extra Attack worthless if I apply it to throwing things.
Martial Arts lets you Rapid Fire with thrown weapons. Basically the Fast Draw eliminates the ready and it's just a straight -6 like melee attacks. For that matter, MA allows you to rapid fire for more than one extra attack even with thrown things.

Spending 25 (or 30 since I would argue that Multi-Strike is required to reuse the same hand), is a lot like spending 24 points for a +6 to skill. High skill gives you greater flexibility with that weapon while Extra Attack gives you the option to mix and match your various striking options.

Bottom line, I don't think it's unbalanced to allow a double throw if they can make Fast Draws to eliminate the readies. It's already allowed for rapid fire throwing.
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Old 09-17-2007, 07:20 PM   #19
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

Bill,

Anyone can parry with a second ready weapon without needing an additional advantage allowing them to do so.

For your fast thrower, there's some cool options in Martial Arts. There is an optional rule allowing Rapid Strike for thrown weapons, and notes that if the weapons weigh less than 1 lb. a piece, that up to 4 can be 'ready' in each hand. Imagine a ninja with a fist full of shuriken, quickly whipping them out one by one from the same hand. If your thrown weapons are too heavy for this rule, consider the Quick Swap perk, which allows you to move a ready weapon in one hand to an empty hand as a free action. So, if you're set up with rocks in both hands, this would be Rapid Strike, Quick Swap, Rapid Strike. If you have the Multistrike enhancement on Extra Attack (allowing you to use the same hand for more than one attack) you can do this with your Extra Attack instead of with the penalties for Rapid Strike. Additionally, Martial Arts has rules for Multiple Fast Draw. This allows you to draw additional weapons past the first at a cumulative -2 modifier to your Fast Draw skill.

You did not mention having the multi-strike enhancement on Extra Attack, so I am assuming you don't have this. So, if one has the following:
Fast Draw (Rock), Quick Swap (Throwing)
They can do this:
Round 1: Maneuver: Attack. No weapons readied. Fast Draw to ready 1 rock, Fast Draw at -2 to ready the other in the offhand. Make one attack with the main hand, then Quick Swap the off-hand weapon to the main hand and use your Extra Attack to attack again.

If you are highly skilled, you may want to Rapid Strike, and if you take the Off-Hand Weapon Training Perk with Throwing, you can throw with the off-hand, too. Here's that example:
Round 1: Maneuver: Attack. No weapons readied. Fast Draw to ready 1 rock, Fast Draw at -2 to ready the other in the offhand. Rapid Strike (-6) With the main hand, then Quick Swap and fire the other part of the Rapid Strike (also at -6). Those penalties can of course be lowered to -3 if the GM allows you to use Extra Effort: Flurry of Blows and spend 1 FP per attack. Finally, you can attempt another Fast Draw at -4 in the off-hand and use your Extra Attack.
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Old 09-17-2007, 07:53 PM   #20
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Default Re: Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

To think the willingness to spend 1 point on Fast-draw could have obviated the need for this thread.
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