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Old 11-08-2013, 02:52 PM   #31
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: 4 swings?

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Originally Posted by jtsmith1287 View Post
Oh you know what ... ignore me. I just read my own dang quote and saw "unless you make an All-out Attack". *sigh* ... carry on, nothing to see here.
And yeah, using Extra Attack also does not qualify as 'normally' for purposes of that bit.
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Old 11-08-2013, 03:00 PM   #32
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Default Re: 4 swings?

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Originally Posted by jtsmith1287 View Post
"Normally, you are at -4 to attack with two weapons at once unless you make an All-Out Attack. This technique lets you “buy off” that penalty. (Note that you must still learn Off-Hand Weapon Training, p. 232, to reduce the -4 for using the “off” hand!) For detailed rules, see Dual-Weapon Attacks (p. 417)." P.230
that 'normally' is the penitently form a Dual Weapon Attcak option. as refracted on B417.

This attack options lets you with buying ANYTHING [so doesn't need Extra Attack] lets you keep your defenses [instead of using AoA(Double)], plus a -1 penitently to their defense if it the same target, though multiple targets are limited to adjacent targets. at the cost of -4.

However if you Buy Extra Attack to get your second attack you don't NEED to take the Dual-Weapon Attack Option , which means no -4 penilty to hit, no limit to adjacent targets and you can keep you defences, However you don't get -1 penalty to enemy defenses because you did not take the Dual-Weapon Attack option

Extra Attack will and an additional penalized attack to any maneuver that grants you attack already. However unless you have multistrike it must be with a so far unused weapon/limb/striker

AoA(Double) lets you make an addational attack with no limitation on which attack it can be, the cost of loosing all your defences.

These do Stack, some with Extra Attack(multistrike), Ambidexterity/Off-hand weapon traing and 4 levels of the approprate Dual-Weapon Technic, may make 4 attacks with no penilty, two of which will be at -1 to defend if they are against the same target, if not two of those swing need to be at adjacent targets. Hoover you will get no defences.

the math works like Base AoA(Double) 2 attacks + 1 For Extra Attack (Multi), now one of those 3 attacks can be used with Dual-Weapon Attack option to convert them into swapped out attack for 2 attacks that meat the DWA restrictions.
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Old 11-08-2013, 03:10 PM   #33
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Default Re: 4 swings?

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Originally Posted by jtsmith1287 View Post
Oh you know what ... ignore me. I just read my own dang quote and saw "unless you make an All-out Attack". *sigh* ... carry on, nothing to see here.
Yeah, I think Peter's post - which was completely accurate, but brought Dual-Weapon Attack into it when you said you weren't using that option - maybe confused you.

I'll spell it out in a slightly different way. You may apply either or both of the following freely:

- All-Out Attack (Double) adds one attack at full skill, at the cost of losing your defenses. This doesn't limit you in any other way.
- Extra Attack adds one attack at full skill per level, which happens at the end of your maneuver and requires a weapon/limb you haven't used that maneuver (unless you take Multistrike).

You may apply one of the following once only:

- Dual-Weapon Attack turns one of your attacks into two attacks, both at -4, which must be made with different weapons.
- Rapid Strike turns one of your attacks into two attacks, both at -6, which may be made with the same weapon.
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Old 11-08-2013, 04:45 PM   #34
Peter V. Dell'Orto
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Default Re: 4 swings?

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Originally Posted by davidtmoore View Post
I think the example isn't using DWA at all. He's using AOA(D) to strike twice at no penalty with his on hand, Extra Attack and Ambidexterity to strike once with no penalty with his off hand. Risky but legit.

Okay, fair enough. It's hard to parse out what's included in each example.

What's odd is how hard this all is to explain, but it works so smoothly at the table. :)
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Old 11-09-2013, 06:39 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
Okay, fair enough. It's hard to parse out what's included in each example.

What's odd is how hard this all is to explain, but it works so smoothly at the table. :)
I know, right? It's like trying to explain the offside rule in soccer. You know you're in trouble when your explanation starts "It's perfectly simple..."
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Old 11-09-2013, 07:18 AM   #36
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Default Re: 4 swings?

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Originally Posted by davidtmoore View Post
I know, right? It's like trying to explain the offside rule in soccer. You know you're in trouble when your explanation starts "It's perfectly simple..."
Didn't Kromm write a whole post once carefully breaking down how this all worked? I'd like to find that again but searching on "DWA" or "Extra Attack" doesn't narrow down the hits much on this forum.
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Old 11-09-2013, 08:19 AM   #37
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Default Re: 4 swings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
Didn't Kromm write a whole post once carefully breaking down how this all worked? I'd like to find that again but searching on "DWA" or "Extra Attack" doesn't narrow down the hits much on this forum.
I found 3 posts from Kromm, the first strongly indicates the text in Martial Arts covers this.
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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Yep. I wrote a long essay on this for Martial Arts -- even though the Basic Set already says 80% of this stuff -- because it's clear that people have trouble sorting out all the bits and pieces. The essay wasn't cut, so once the book comes out, there will be a one-stop FAQ for "Can I stack multiple-attack Thingy X with multiple-attack Thingy Y?", "Can I intersperse steps between multiple attacks?", "Can I spread multiple attacks across multiple foes?", "Can I take close-combat actions like 'break free' as part of a multiple-attack sequence?", etc. Sorry to make people wait for it, but it isn't a short essay that we've approved as a preview.
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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
No, I'm right and the book is imprecise. We clarified this greatly in Martial Arts: "Each level of the Extra Attack advantage gives one additional attack per All-Out Attack, Attack, Committed Attack, Defensive Attack, or Move and Attack maneuver. Extra Attack benefits only those maneuvers." Also: "A fighter . . . can't sacrifice attacks to perform tasks covered by other maneuvers. He cannot make multiple posture changes . . . hastily Ready an unready weapon . . . count his turn as more than one second of Concentrate, or Aim or Evaluate on a turn when he attacks." In short, Extra Attack is one extra attack roll on your turn when you take an offensive maneuver. It isn't an extra Attack maneuver.
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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Well . . . the next time I'm asked for errata for a new printing, I'll add this one. The wording in the Basic Set is wrong. The only way to get an extra maneuver in GURPS is via Altered Time Rate or spell effects (like Great Haste) that emulate it. There are lots of ways to gain extra actions (small-a attacks, small-f feints, etc.) -- including Dual-Weapon Attack, Extra Attack, and Rapid Strike for attacks and feints, and Fast-Draw rolls for readying things -- but these don't add maneuvers. Maneuvers have an action component, a movement component, and a defense component. While it's fine to add extra actions, adding the entire maneuver gets crazy. (And why on earth would one ready a breath weapon, anyway? Attack abilities explicitly don't need readying.)
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Old 11-09-2013, 12:03 PM   #38
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Default Re: 4 swings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
Didn't Kromm write a whole post once carefully breaking down how this all worked? I'd like to find that again but searching on "DWA" or "Extra Attack" doesn't narrow down the hits much on this forum.
multiple of such posts are quoted [and link back to their original threads] in Number of Attacks + Maneuvers Clarification
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Old 11-09-2013, 06:20 PM   #39
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Default Re: 4 swings?

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Originally Posted by Nereidalbel View Post
If you have Extra Attacks, only one of them can be an AoA. I believe the same goes for Dual Weapon Attacks, but I could be wrong on that one.
I'm waiting for a Cosmic Enhancement to change that rule.
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Old 11-09-2013, 10:24 PM   #40
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Default Re: 4 swings?

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
I'm waiting for a Cosmic Enhancement to change that rule.
Uh. AoA is a Maneuver, not an attack option, so that half of it doesn't make any sense.
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