Code of Honor (Honesty), point value?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

With his super senses, why should he ignore the suffering of others?
It's pretty gruesome to imagine a superman that just ignores all the crime.

If you want to dedicate your life to emergency response, become an EMT or firefighter or something. If you specifically want to do first response to violent and criminal incidents, join the police.

I'm not saying that I, personally, believe that official governmental authority automatically makes things safer, more effective or less prone to abuse. But then, I'm clearly not Honest, as I don't make much of an effort to obey laws I disagree with.

The reality is that there are widely different legal standards in most modern countries for bystanders who react in an emergency to prevent tragedy vs. any persons who deliberately seek out situations where they are able to use rescue or crime-fighting methods that otherwise would be illegal.

The clear trend is to require that anyone who plans for such activity be certified, accountable, subject to standards and practises, equipped accordingly, regulated and authorised. And there are cogent arguments to be made for that point of view, as most people who decide to dress funny and beat up poor minorities are more likely to be the inheritors of the Ku Klux Klan than they are to be Batman or Superman.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

But if your code does not allow slavery, then you can't promote it even where it is legal.
You seem to be assuming additional disadvantages not stated. Like how lack of empathy does not equal sadism. It merely means you don't care about others' suffering.

The iconic examples would be turning over escaped slaves to slave-catchers or Jews to the Nazis. These are legal representatives of the state, duly empowered to carry out their duties in accordance with the current law of the land. Honest people may or may not care about the morality, but they need a SC roll to avoid turning any refugees over.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The reality is that there are widely different legal standards in most modern countries for bystanders who react in an emergency to prevent tragedy vs. any persons who deliberately seek out situations where they are able to use rescue or crime-fighting methods that otherwise would be illegal.

Look I can't say there haven't been any stories in which some writer didn't have Superman do illegal things. It's been 80 years, there have been a lot of different versions of Superman and a lot of writers who don't necessarily know what they're doing. But saving lives isn't illegal. There are no illegal ways to rescue people from building fires provided that you don't make their danger worse. Stopping criminals in the middle of a felony without hurting them isn't illegal. Superman is not Batman. Superman can do his thing without breaking the law.

[tanksoldier]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

But if your code does not allow slavery, then you can't promote it even where it is legal.

Then that wouldn't be "Honesty" as used in GURPS. To be honest, "Honesty" should have probably been named "Lawfulness".

I'm talking about the OP's incorrect understanding of the Honesty disadvantage, not his code of honor with the same name.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Icelander

If you want to dedicate your life to emergency response, become an EMT or firefighter or something. If you specifically want to do first response to violent and criminal incidents, join the police.

I'm not saying that I, personally, believe that official governmental authority automatically makes things safer, more effective or less prone to abuse. But then, I'm clearly not Honest, as I don't make much of an effort to obey laws I disagree with.

The reality is that there are widely different legal standards in most modern countries for bystanders who react in an emergency to prevent tragedy vs. any persons who deliberately seek out situations where they are able to use rescue or crime-fighting methods that otherwise would be illegal.

The clear trend is to require that anyone who plans for such activity be certified, accountable, subject to standards and practises, equipped accordingly, regulated and authorised. And there are cogent arguments to be made for that point of view, as most people who decide to dress funny and beat up poor minorities are more likely to be the inheritors of the Ku Klux Klan than they are to be Batman or Superman.

I see your point. In an otherwise realistic world, supers would/should join governmentally sanctioned rescue teams.
But governments in comics are even more corrupt and infiltrated by enemy organizations than they are in reality. That makes joining any such registration inherently dumb if not suicidal.

You're a lawyer. I don't think anyone here assumes you have Honesty... Kidding, kidding.
Overused joke, but as most people don't have anything more than a quirk level Honesty...

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The iconic examples would be turning over escaped slaves to slave-catchers or Jews to the Nazis. These are legal representatives of the state, duly empowered to carry out their duties in accordance with the current law of the land. Honest people may or may not care about the morality, but they need a SC roll to avoid turning any refugees over.

Only if their Honesty is connected to the local laws. I initially assumed that's what that disadvantage meant, but according to authors it isn't.
Your set of rules is what matters, not those of the local society unless that is defined as your set.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

You're a lawyer. I don't think anyone here assumes you have Honesty... Kidding, kidding.

Actually I think that might highlight the difference between the normal use of the word and some interpretations of the GURPS disadvantage. Many stereotypical evil lawyers are much closer to the geas to obey the law version than the normal English meaning of honest, in that they do stay (barely) inside the letter of the law while completely violating its spirit.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Actually I think that might highlight the difference between the normal use of the word and some interpretations of the GURPS disadvantage. Many stereotypical evil lawyers are much closer to the geas to obey the law version than the normal English meaning of honest, in that they do stay (barely) inside the letter of the law while completely violating its spirit.

Conversely, education and experience as a lawyer largely involves internalising the concept that actual law reflects the end result of a messy, imprecise, imperfect process fraught with human frailty, prejudice and ignorance, and that justice and morality are entirely independent of the technical concept of 'the law'.

The idea that the compulsively law-abiding behaviour described as the GURPS Disadvantage 'Honesty' has any bearing on being genuinely ethical, honest or moral isn't one likely to find much sympathy with lawyers.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Conversely, education and experience as a lawyer largely involves internalising the concept that actual law reflects the end result of a messy, imprecise, imperfect process fraught with human frailty, prejudice and ignorance, and that justice and morality are entirely independent of the technical concept of 'the law'.

The idea that the compulsively law-abiding behaviour described as the GURPS Disadvantage 'Honesty' has any bearing on being genuinely ethical, honest or moral isn't one likely to find much sympathy with lawyers.

Not entirely independent, because the actual law reflects what humans think it should be and some are as it happens just and moral while most desire others to behave justly and morally to them more then they desire that others behave thuggishly toward them.

[jason taylor]

One interesting scene I remember Victor Lazlo telling Captain Renault,"I am under your authority, is it your order that I come to the station" or however he worded that. Another is where he describes himself as a Czech, Major Strassor tells him he is a lawful subject of the Third Reich and he says, "I do not recognize such allegiance. Not, "Darn right I'm a rebel and to heck with what you think about it" but "I serve a different regime and reject that specious claim of Nazi Germany to rule over my homeland. He in fact would probably consider the Czech exile state to be his lawful allegiance.

Those two quotes tell that Lazlo has an instinctive respect for law. Not so much slavish respect as he could hardly operate without breaking the local law quite often. But a mentality that would make obeying the law a default choice in peacetime which it obviously was not.

In other words his CoH includes respecting the law. It did not include following it blindly when it's officers were themselves lawless. In this case it would be quirk level as it certainly does not inhibit him.