Backstabbing - do I really need to attack?

[Bruno]

I had a thought on backstabbing and thieves in combat.

Do I really need to stab them after I appear behind the nearest enemy? Can I just steal their weapon, tie their boots together, and then sneak off to riffle through the drawers while they go fight PCs?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I had a thought on backstabbing and thieves in combat.

Do I really need to stab them after I appear behind the nearest enemy? Can I just steal their weapon, tie their boots together, and then sneak off to riffle through the drawers while they go fight PCs?

Any of those things would be "attacks" (physical actions with negative effects for an enemy in combat) in a broad sense, so go ahead. For instance, stealing a weapon is just a variation on disarming, while tying boots together is simply a variation on grappling. Both would normally be attacks. Doing so undetected is a whole other thing . . .

To steal a weapon that's in hand, you'd actually have to attack, wrestle, etc., but for one that's stowed, I'd use Pickpocket (for a weapon small enough to be concealed) or Filch (for a sheathed sword, slung bow, etc.) – at +3 for the distraction of combat – vs. the victim's Perception. To tie boots together, I'd use Knot-Tying (at no bonus, as you're working too hastily) vs. Perception; I'd treat the effect as if the legs had been entangled by bolas. In both cases, I'd say the successful use of Stealth allows what would otherwise be impossible in combat, in lieu of giving the +4 that a violent attack would get.

[Bruno]

We're testing the random dungeon generator, with the random encounter generator, and we've had the extremely unfortunate luck to have something like five or six rooms with Siege Beasts as the main occupants.

It's very hard to "backstab" a siege beast with the same kind of decisive result as, say, a goblin (even being a half-ogre with an axe...) and Teeto just isn't able to contribute significantly in a regular melee vs them. Can't disarm one either, of course, but I can hobble one, dump a grenade on it, or get up to other unconventional-combat hijinx.

Then I need to keep pumping my Stealth so I can drop a nagateppo, and Backstab again, and pop up behind another Beast and irritate it even more :)

The other route with Siege beasts is to "backstab" it by cutting an arm off to "disarm" it. Entertaining, but I really need to stop thinking "Barbarian" with my thief :)

[The Colonel]

I guess you could probably claim a bonus to grab a weapon from someone who didn't know you were there ... like grabbing someone's torch in the dark and flinging it away... by the time they have adjusted their grip to resist you, the torch is gone and you are leaving as well.

[Kromm]

Were I the GM, I'd let a hidden thief set up a foe for failure against a fellow PC who's more of a warrior: Grab an arm or a leg to screw up an active defense (I'd let +4 to hit turn into -2 to enemy defense, just as it would on a Deceptive Attack), or crouch down behind someone who's retreating, causing them to trip (DX-2 roll to avoid falling, like a trip-rope). In fact, I'd allow both of those at once, with the thief hugging the victim's legs at the moment of the attack, giving -2 to defenses and forcing a DX-2 roll to avoid a fall if the defense involves a retreat. Crouching Robber, Hidden Fagin.