Gaming Ballistic - GURPS Content Posts

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by whswhs

All right. The summary of the basic rules is "Basically, an improved grapple either enables a follow-on technique such as a throw, lock, or crush, or boosts your ST in appropriate places." But it would help my understanding to have an explicit, itemized list of which options fall under each head, rather than having to go down the analyses and figure out where each one fits.

I have color coded the entries and lumped them together.

It's not entirely clear to me that the Basic Set really has this option, as distinct from step 3. What is there in the Basic Set rules that couldn't be subsumed under step 3?

Position in my lexicon is a combination of posture, weight advantage, and facing. So Arm Lock is none of these; it's pure leverage. Shifting Grip from Martial Arts is clearly an improved location choice. Choke Hold is a combination of Step 2 (location) and Step 4 (Win). Takedown is pure Step 3.

Step 2 and 3 are somewhat artificial in the Basic Set, but are clear, defined, and distinct with Technical Grappling.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Hmm. Somehow I didn't think of it from a purely game-mechanical PoV. I thought it was a mechanism that realistically represents tradeoffs in e.g. Wrench Arm/Spine/etc. that somehow got generalised to, well, everything with a Quick Contest affecting damage.

Some of the arm lock and wrench moves can be rationalized better this way, though the fit isn't perfect. The chokes are more or less not well represented by this mechanic with simulationist fidelity, but when you stack up the way it's usually used - lots of CP, grapple from the rear arc, and often with a compromised posture on the part of the foe, it winds up irresistible enough that AoA(Double) or Telegrapic Rapid Strikes for control/injury work out OK.

Michael Roy (Kallatari) has a nice house rule where you don't spend CP, but damage is always capped at half your accrued CP.

Regarding things happening too fast: is it really your experience that a grappler gets rid of more monsters/etc. as compared to the striker, per unit of time? In B/MA? In TG?

My real-world experience grappling monsters is pretty much nil. My real world grappling experience with people, as well as watching lots of grappling in MMA matches, suggests that it can take dozens to hundreds of GURPS turns to achieve a satisfactory result, as two fighters struggle to get the right grip. location, position, etc. The total dominance represented by a pin doesn't just fall into place nearly ever.

Sean made a very explicit comment about this in the early draft stage. Let me see if I can find it. Ah. That was harder than it should have been: "I like the idea that grappling could actually take *longer* than
punching. Right now, it's beyond weird that the solution to buying time
when Smart Hero wants to pick the lock that Big Guard is watching is to
send Strong Hero over to have a fistfight. "

Of course it's not errata.

"You found a better rule, submit it as errata" is a common-enough sentiment here that I figured I'd deal with it.

Are those non-CP TG mechanisms posted somewhere? If not, will they be? If they will, blog or Pyramid?

One of them is in Pyr#3/61, p. 33: "No Spending CP."

Other concepts, expansions, clarifications, and simplifications are written down somewhere, with an infamous co-author.

Some of them are outgrowths of another conversation I was having with the same co-author about something else, and when time allows, we'll probably write that down too.

I try and send stuff to w23 first (though that's a very few and far between option), Pyramid next, blog about it third, and make a forum post last in terms of where I put my thoughts down. If I got more donations or Patreon interest (though admittedly my Patreon page is barely functional) I'd make that my option of first resort, because I do like to monetize my hobby when possible.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I have color coded the entries and lumped them together.

Okay, I guess that's green, though it looks black on my browser.

I must not have made it entirely clear what I was asking for. I'm glad to have them sorted out this way, but you also seemed to be saying that step two could either enable a follow-on technique or boost ST. Would it be possible to have the various step twos coded as doing one or the other?

I had actually sort of assumed that everything in this installment's list was a step two, and they were just one kind or the other; I figured that if they were really step three or four tout court, they wouldn't be here. . . . But apparently that's not the case.

Bill Stoddard

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Okay, I guess that's green, though it looks black on my browser.

I had actually sort of assumed that everything in this installment's list was a step two, and they were just one kind or the other; I figured that if they were really step three or four tout court, they wouldn't be here. . . . But apparently that's not the case.

Bill Stoddard

It was easier for me to go through Actions After a Grapple and More Actions After a Grapple and list them all, and my reasons for each, than deal with "what about X?"

It also allows me to easily pluck things out of this post and then amplify on them later.

I must not have made it entirely clear what I was asking for. I'm glad to have them sorted out this way, but you also seemed to be saying that step two could either enable a follow-on technique or boost ST. Would it be possible to have the various step twos coded as doing one or the other?

Hrm. That wouldn't be too hard. Some are both (Arm Lock, frex, enables follow-on techniques such as applying pain with locks, throws with locks, and injury as well as getting +4 to the Quick Contest to Break Free).

The notation [Follow-on] means that the benefit of the improved grapple is a follow-on technique, such as Arm Lock enabling pain or injury. [+ST] means it gives a bonus to a Quick Contest of ST, or improves damage. [+CP] will mean that it enables adding CP to an existing grapple. [-DX] means that it inflicts additional DX penalties. Note that [+CP] implies that it gets additional ST and DX penalties.

[DouglasCole]

The Grappling Mat is where I put links to posts - usually of mine - that deal with wrestling and grappling. While nearly all of them are about GURPS, one of my Top 10 Posts Ever are my thoughts on grappling in D&D 5th Edition.

This page got a major update today, as I realized that the last time I updated these links was when Pyramid #3/61 came out!

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Some of the arm lock and wrench moves can be rationalized better this way, though the fit isn't perfect. The chokes are more or less not well represented by this mechanic with simulationist fidelity, but when you stack up the way it's usually used - lots of CP, grapple from the rear arc, and often with a compromised posture on the part of the foe, it winds up irresistible enough that AoA(Double) or Telegrapic Rapid Strikes for control/injury work out OK.

Hmm.
And just to clarify my previous statement: what I meant is that I did not think of CPs as being designed as a purely gamist abstraction in the context of some Techniques; I thought they were at least intended to be 100% simulationist everywhere. So what you say is something of a change of perspective (not sure if that's the right word) for me.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

My real-world experience grappling monsters is pretty much nil. My real world grappling experience with people, as well as watching lots of grappling in MMA matches, suggests that it can take dozens to hundreds of GURPS turns to achieve a satisfactory result, as two fighters struggle to get the right grip. location, position, etc. The total dominance represented by a pin doesn't just fall into place nearly ever.

Sean made a very explicit comment about this in the early draft stage. Let me see if I can find it. Ah. That was harder than it should have been: "I like the idea that grappling could actually take *longer* than
punching. Right now, it's beyond weird that the solution to buying time
when Smart Hero wants to pick the lock that Big Guard is watching is to
send Strong Hero over to have a fistfight. "

Well, an important consideration is how it compares to striking in a system. Does it take dozens of hundreds of GURPS turns to achieve a satisfactory result with punching?
For an Average GURPS Protagonist, base damage for a punch is 1d-3, or {0,0,0,1,2,3}, averaging 1 injury per successful non-dodged/non-parried hit. Call that an average of 1 injury per 4 seconds. So it takes about 40 seconds to force the first consciousness checks.

Now, MMA fighters aren't average - in fact, I wonder what are the stats and skill levels of MMA fighters of various levels. There's the guideline for estimating skill levels (which seems to indicate the 10-15 range, mostly), sure, but ST, HT, Fit, DX etc. are harder for me to estimate. And there are other complications, such as punches to the head, major wounds etc.

I'm not saying the ratio is necessarily unrealistic, more like, I'm wondering whether it is. After all, GURPS admits that combats should have more lulls in general; having one map 1:1 to real-life durations while leaving the other as-is might have weird consequences in the opposite direction as the one Kromm mentioned.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

"You found a better rule, submit it as errata" is a common-enough sentiment here that I figured I'd deal with it.

There's a difference between a better rule that is easy to implement without 'printing' an equivalent of a revised or altogether new edition, and one that requires the latter. E.g. Biting ST adjustment in TG as opposed to, say, Rapid Fire changes between GURPS 3e and 4e (note: I'm not saying 4e RoF is better, but that's another topic).

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Hmm.
And just to clarify my previous statement: what I meant is that I did not think of CPs as being designed as a purely gamist abstraction in the context of some Techniques; I thought they were at least intended to be 100% simulationist everywhere. So what you say is something of a change of perspective (not sure if that's the right word) for me.

Control Points as a measure of the power of a grapple are a fine model (and "100% simulationist" is NEVER my goal. GURPS is not a simulation and I don't try to make it one - I go for plausible verisimilitude).

The only other point I'll make is that most fights are not won by being forced into unconsciousness, and despite it being -5 in GURPS terms, many blows are thrown to the head. Joe Average AllStat Ten is not going to be throwing attacks, he's likely throwing All-Out (Strong or Determined) Telegraphic attacks, at Skill-13 (hit face at 1d-3) or Skill-9 (hit face at 1d-1).

That being said, many grappling matches between foes of equal skill can go for minutes, as in 2-5 minutes (120-300 seconds). Some BJJ matches last more, I understand, especially in their tests. They're somewhat famously patient, but that's by hearsay.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

The only other point I'll make is that most fights are not won by being forced into unconsciousness, and despite it being -5 in GURPS terms, many blows are thrown to the head. Joe Average AllStat Ten is not going to be throwing attacks, he's likely throwing All-Out (Strong or Determined) Telegraphic attacks, at Skill-13 (hit face at 1d-3) or Skill-9 (hit face at 1d-1).

Those are fair points. I just sort of generalised to the way (a) at least half of the nonlethal fights seem to be fought in RPGs and (b) the boxing/brawling cliché of someone collapsing and not being able to continue from either a single punch, or some time after cumulative damage.
The -5 for the face always looked quite harsh when compared to a brain hit being so much better for a mere -2 worse modifier.

[McAllister]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Those are fair points. I just sort of generalised to the way (a) at least half of the nonlethal fights seem to be fought in RPGs and (b) the boxing/brawling cliché of someone collapsing and not being able to continue from either a single punch, or some time after cumulative damage.
The -5 for the face always looked quite harsh when compared to a brain hit being so much better for a mere -2 worse modifier.

http://static.mijnwebwinkel.nl/winke...ll26822184.jpg

I'd probably give -5 to hit this guy in the face without the 2/6 chance of hitting the armor, but yeah, punching an unarmored face is probably easier than -5 (and kicking it may well be worse).

[DouglasCole]

The Firing Squad welcomes prolific writer and firearms enthusiast Hans-Christian Vortisch. We sit down for 75 minutes to talk about shooting and modeling shooting in games. We spend quite a bit speaking about the portrayal of firearms in cinema, and how that influences games as well.

I had fun, and we only stopped because I had to go to work! If you have a moment between football and a tryptophan coma, drop by and give a listen.