Is there something about the slam rules I'm missing?

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by Talonos

It took me an embarrassingly long time to find that rule, especially given that I knew exactly what I was looking for. Under "Head-On", under "Collision angle"? What a weird spot to put it.

Remember, GURPS started out as a system for handling fantasy warriors smacking each other with sword and board. Other combat tends to look like an aftermarket bolt-on sometimes — and bolt-ons can be untidy.

[sir_pudding]

The DFRPG slam rules may produce more satisfying results and dedicated pouncers (not cheetahs, but other cats, sunspiders etc.) benefit more from Sumo Wrestling than Brawling. Also for pouncers, you should probably just use the jump distance as the impact velocity.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

Remember, GURPS started out as a system for handling fantasy warriors smacking each other with sword and board. Other combat tends to look like an aftermarket bolt-on sometimes — and bolt-ons can be untidy.

And they predate most of the unarmed combat rules, which is another problem. A slam will never happen at relative velocities anything like as high as you hit something with, say, your leg in a kick, and of course the target of a kick is substantially heavier than your leg is, and yet kicks don't fracture your leg....
I think the problem is the knockback rule [did] already exist, and damage was defined on the basis of that, aiming at causing both parties to be knocked back a lot of the time (because pushing an opponent is much of the point, and if you are using a slam to shove him over a cliff edge you kind of want the rules to stop you if not push you back the other way), and this really doesn't work very well. Note how Shove basically abandons linking damage to knockback. That's really what Slam should do, with some different method of calculating actual damage, something based on thrust like any other unarmed attack would probably work OK.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by malloyd

That's really what Slam should do, with some different method of calculating actual damage, something based on thrust like any other unarmed attack would probably work OK.

Like thr-2 plus the SSRT modifier for distance moved that turn?

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I think the problem is the knockback rule [did] already exist, and damage was defined on the basis of that, aiming at causing both parties to be knocked back a lot of the time (because pushing an opponent is much of the point, and if you are using a slam to shove him over a cliff edge you kind of want the rules to stop you if not push you back the other way), and this really doesn't work very well. Note how Shove basically abandons linking damage to knockback. That's really what Slam should do, with some different method of calculating actual damage, something based on thrust like any other unarmed attack would probably work OK.

That would make it a variation on the Shove rule. Possibly just a Shove with a bonus to 'damage' for movement.

[Varyon]

I've always felt the primary issue with the Slam rules is that they basically assume the attacker is just running into the target, and the bonus from Brawling or Sumo Wrestling really isn't enough to differentiate between that and purposefully slamming into someone using your shoulder or similar. A proper Slam should basically hit the target with a striking surface of some flavor, which gives a bit of a boost to damage but, more importantly, markedly reduces the sort of damage the attacker suffers as a result. Slams should also typically have increased knockback relative to their amount of damage - whether that means using damage around the current value and giving it Double Knockback, or sacrificing some of the current damage and turning it into said Double Knockback (essentially making part of the damage into a Shove rather than a Strike), however, is a bit beyond me.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Like thr-2 plus the SSRT modifier for distance moved that turn?

Is that the way DFRPG handles it? Because that would be really easy - thr-4 for Move 1, thr-2 for Move 2, thr-1 for Move 3, thr for Move 5, thr+1 for Move 7, thr+2 for Move 10, and so forth.

[Talonos]

So I'm seeing a few problems here:

1. Pounce does not actually represent what we would consider a pounce. Pounce, being a subset of flying tackle, which is a subset of slam, represents a flying shoulder check, after which you happen to land on your feet. What we would consider a "pounce", where you jump on something and grab onto it in an attempt to cause it to fall over with you on top of it, is better modeled as a trip or grapple or something. "Pounce" is a mis-moniker and the suggestion that large cats would use it is false, and instead of trying to house-rule it to be more pounce-like, we should just treat it as the flying shoulder-check it is.
2. Slams, being represented by the collision rules, just represent two things crashing into each other, when in reality, people intentionally running into each other is much more complex. For instance, often real-life slams more about transfer of momentum to make the other guy fall over, more like a shove. Slams, as collisions, seem to be meant for vehicles, robots, and shield bashers, not cats or football players.
3. Even if you did collide with someone with nothing but the intent to do damage, it wouldn't be modeled like a car crash. The attacker would put his hard/rigid bits (shoulder, elbow, forearm, shield maybe, head for head-butters) into his opponents fragile or squishy bits (ribs, face, abdomen) such that it would be more damaging for the defender than the attacker. The only way I see the slam rules making sense as written is if two people *both* decide to slam and run into each other shoulder-on-shoulder or head-on-head, such that they have comparable impact sites.

[apoc527]

Very interesting discussion. I think there are two things worth noting that may affect the continued analysis here:

1. Footballs players absolutely hurt themselves all the time and probably "take damage" on nearly every tackle. Of course, they have armor that is specifically crafted to absorb crushing damage, which helps a lot.

2. As Talonos points out below, a cat pounce is not a Pounce (which is a subset of Slam)...so that's a weird rule issue to be resolved. Someone mentioned that it's really a Move followed by a jump, which means we should really look at a pounce as involving falling damage, not slam damage. And I believe cats reduce falling damage substantially via the...umm...Catfall...advantage (also prey is probably not a "hard surface" for purposes of falling damage).

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by apoc527

Very interesting discussion. I think there are two things worth noting that may affect the continued analysis here:

1. Footballs players absolutely hurt themselves all the time and probably "take damage" on nearly every tackle. Of course, they have armor that is specifically crafted to absorb crushing damage, which helps a lot.

2. As Talonos points out below, a cat pounce is not a Pounce (which is a subset of Slam)...so that's a weird rule issue to be resolved. Someone mentioned that it's really a Move followed by a jump, which means we should really look at a pounce as involving falling damage, not slam damage. And I believe cats reduce falling damage substantially via the...umm...Catfall...advantage (also prey is probably not a "hard surface" for purposes of falling damage).

Yeah, cheetah and falcons using slam or pounce rules only make sense if they avoid slamming into the target at full speed - which I believe both do from how I interpret the videos.
Momemtum is still part of the attack but mostly used to extend reach or catch the prey with little additional damage from it. H4ence I think of it as closest to a slam but reducing velocity at the last movement before impact so more like a Move and Attack but without the wild swing cap and penalty.
Be nice to see a Pyramid article or even Martial Arts supplement addressing some things.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

You forgot a few rules, Page 432 of Basic Set. Specifically, The struck object cannot inflict more dice of damage than the striking or falling one. So the most the impala can do is what the cheetah did, 2d.

Another idea, regarding Roll With Blow - if you can use that to reduce damage you take while being slammed then perhaps you could also use it to reduce damage you take -while- slamming?

In that case I was thinking giving them some kind of bonus since they definitely see the impact coming since they were the ones to initiate it.

Like for example if Roll With Blow got a +2 bonus against Telegraphic Attack (not sure how that works) you could consider any slam you initiate to be telegraphed for your own purposes too.