Bioengineering/Strength and Weight

~~Alonsua~~ · 07-13-2018, 03:18 AM

What would happen if I were to increase the density of muscles, bones, etc. instead of increasing apparent things such as muscles or height in order to increase Strength? Would that count as eugenic, species or radical species modifications? Is there any chance to increase Strength without increasing body weight?

Nereidalbel · 07-13-2018, 03:42 AM

Human muscles are already capable of a significant boost to strength...once. If you could increase bone, tendon, and ligament durability enough with a bit of genetic engineering and/or implants, the hard part would be re-wiring the part of the brain that limits the amount of strength actually used.

Definitely outside the scope of eugenics, but, not quite radical, either. Weight really wouldn't have to increase anywhere near as much as if you just increased sheer muscle mass.

mlangsdorf · 07-13-2018, 06:27 AM

So chimpanzees can pull (on average) about 1.5x as a human as the same mass. Current research suggests that's because they have more fast-twitch muscle mass than we do, and their muscles use longer fibers.

A genengineered human with 2/3rds of the muscle mass made of long strand, fast-twitch muscle, as opposed to the normal 1/2 of the mass being fast-twitch, would be about 1.5x as strong as a normal human of the same weight. He'd also be clumsier, with less fine motor control, and would get fatigued a lot quicker. The actual changes would be at least a species modification.

It might be possible to address the fatigue problem by adding organs to influence the production of lactic acid, lactate, and all the other chemicals in the Krebs and Cori cycles, but I'm not a biologist so the feasibility of that is really beyond me. The Krebs and Cori cycles are pretty fundamental metabolic processes, and I expect that improving them is pretty sophisticated science.[1] Any changes here are definitely radical species modifications.

I think for primates, muscle strength is strongly dependent on muscle mass. You can trade-off instant performance for endurance or vice versa, but for the same amount of endurance, the only way we currently know to increase strength is to increase mass.

Neridalbel's suggestions for trying to optimize around the breaking point of the muscles is another approach that might or might not work. Even if it works, it's going to have additional complications, like needing to eat a lot more - if you're making the existing muscles work near their maximum ability routinely, you're going to need more energy in general and presumably more proteins to repair the additional damage the muscles are taking.[2]

[1] Influencing them is easy, but improving them so your fast-twitch muscles have the endurance of slow-twitch muscles without causing other problems is probably not easy. Evolution has spent billions of years optimizing these systems, so making them better will require a lot of work.
[2] By analogy, the Italians prior to WWII developed a 15" naval cannon that fired rounds at about 150 m/s faster than everyone else's. The higher velocity gave the rounds more range and armor penetration, but dramatically shortened the barrel's firing life. The US or Japan could have made similar changes, but while the Italians expected their fleet to operate very near to their bases where it would be easy to replace the barrels, the US and Japanese fleets were expected to be roaming all over the Pacific and the admirals did not want to try swap barrels in a hurry at some flyspeck atoll. Upping the performance by operating closer to the limits of unsafe performance would be a similar trade-off: more performance now, more maintenance later.

AlexanderHowl · 07-13-2018, 07:26 AM

Weight and ST are not necessarily linked in GURPS (the minimum weight of an average ST 10 person in 115 lbs while the minimum weight of a ST 14 person is 170 lbs, a 48% increase in mass for a 96% increase in capabilities (or 1.5x for 2x for simplicity). That suggests that the minimum weight for ST 20 should be 251 lbs, 372 lbs for ST 25, etc). This is for human-scale creatures though, and the vast majority of people will not be optimized to that extent.

~~Alonsua~~ · 07-13-2018, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Weight and ST are not necessarily linked in GURPS (the minimum weight of an average ST 10 person in 115 lbs while the minimum weight of a ST 14 person is 170 lbs, a 48% increase in mass for a 96% increase in capabilities (or 1.5x for 2x for simplicity). That suggests that the minimum weight for ST 20 should be 251 lbs, 372 lbs for ST 25, etc). This is for human-scale creatures though, and the vast majority of people will not be optimized to that extent.

I wish I could take it, but every other book and animal examples use a very precise method to assign weights, and it is from [(HP-1)/2]^3 to [(HP+1)/2]^3 unless you are using special features such as Fat.

AlexanderHowl · 07-13-2018, 01:14 PM

Those are average values for animals based off their racial templates. If you look at the average weight given for ST 10, the ST for the human racial template, it does not even apply to average humans, as their maximum average weight for ST 10 is 175 lbs, which is above [(HP+1)/2]^3). In fact, the weight range in Characters (p. 18) breaks the range of [(HP-1)/2]^3 to [(HP+1)/2]^3 for humans. Maximum average weight at ST 14 is 270 lbs, which is below the lower end of the range. Anyway, weight is an aesthetic choice, if someone wants a ST 14 character at 150 lbs or a ST 8 character at 250 lbs, both with average build, Characters (p.18) says that the GM should let them have it.

Bioengineering also involves making stronger characters with normal human builds by optimizing tissue development through genetic engineering. At least in my games, a parahuman race with +10 ST would determine their weight based off their unmodified ST, meaning that they would be an average of four times as strong (and twice as durable) per pound of body weight as a normal human. If I want them to be larger, I will just give them increased SM or increased body build as well as increased ST.

~~Alonsua~~ · 07-13-2018, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Those are average values for animals based off their racial templates. If you look at the average weight given for ST 10, the ST for the human racial template, it does not even apply to average humans, as their maximum average weight for ST 10 is 175 lbs, which is above [(HP+1)/2]^3). In fact, the weight range in Characters (p. 18) breaks the range of [(HP-1)/2]^3 to [(HP+1)/2]^3 for humans. Maximum average weight at ST 14 is 270 lbs, which is below the lower end of the range. Anyway, weight is an aesthetic choice, if someone wants a ST 14 character at 150 lbs or a ST 8 character at 250 lbs, both with average build, Characters (p.18) says that the GM should let them have it.

Bioengineering also involves making stronger characters with normal human builds by optimizing tissue development through genetic engineering. At least in my games, a parahuman race with +10 ST would determine their weight based off their unmodified ST, meaning that they would be an average of four times as strong (and twice as durable) per pound of body weight as a normal human. If I want them to be larger, I will just give them increased SM or increased body build as well as increased ST.

Yes but that table is not realistic as soon as I start using all of the rules and applying that formula. Are you completely sure that bioengineering is supposed to work that good? I was initially thinking about increasing the bone and muscle density in such a way that the proportion was maintained but they increased their weight and strength, however if we can confirm that there is a possibility of increasing strength without increasing weight I will take it. I already ruled that Lifting/Striking ST do not forcefully increase the weight so bioengineers are able to build ant-like species, but basic Strength has always seemed to be out of that question.

Flyndaran · 07-13-2018, 02:18 PM

Realistic bones denser than optimal become sub-optimal not superhuman.
Vertebrate muscle is relatively uniform in performance at least at the Gurps granularity level.
Really realistically, the best way to increase strength and toughness is by increasing mass.
If you're not going fully realistic, then the only issue becomes one of pseudo-scientific justification. What works for that is up to the individual GM and players.

~~Alonsua~~ · 07-13-2018, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Realistic bones denser than optimal become sub-optimal not superhuman.
Vertebrate muscle is relatively uniform in performance at least at the Gurps granularity level.
Really realistically, the best way to increase strength and toughness is by increasing mass.
If you're not going fully realistic, then the only issue becomes one of pseudo-scientific justification. What works for that is up to the individual GM and players.

Yes that is what I assumed but I want to increase mass and keep the same volume. The characters are at 6'2" already by ST 13 (215-235 lbs) and I do not want them to grow to SM+1 by ST 15 (340-375 lbs) or change their bodies proportions (they are already muscular enough and I do not want the girls to look like Ronnie Coleman or Arnold Schwarzrnegger).

AlexanderHowl · 07-13-2018, 02:47 PM

Conditioning is the best way to increase ST and HP, as muscle mass and bone density increase while fat decreases, and individual muscle fibers and bone tissues become stronger and tougher. Conditioned muscle and bones are stronger and tougher per pound than normal muscle or bone. With increased ST and increased HP, you end up with more muscle and bone and better muscle and bone.

07-13-2018, 03:18 AM	#1
~~Alonsua~~ Banned Join Date: May 2017	Bioengineering/Strength and Weight What would happen if I were to increase the density of muscles, bones, etc. instead of increasing apparent things such as muscles or height in order to increase Strength? Would that count as eugenic, species or radical species modifications? Is there any chance to increase Strength without increasing body weight?

07-13-2018, 03:42 AM	#2
Nereidalbel Join Date: May 2013 Location: Ellicott City, MD	Re: Bioengineering/Strength and Weight Human muscles are already capable of a significant boost to strength...once. If you could increase bone, tendon, and ligament durability enough with a bit of genetic engineering and/or implants, the hard part would be re-wiring the part of the brain that limits the amount of strength actually used. Definitely outside the scope of eugenics, but, not quite radical, either. Weight really wouldn't have to increase anywhere near as much as if you just increased sheer muscle mass.

07-13-2018, 06:27 AM	#3
mlangsdorf Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Austin, TX	Re: Bioengineering/Strength and Weight So chimpanzees can pull (on average) about 1.5x as a human as the same mass. Current research suggests that's because they have more fast-twitch muscle mass than we do, and their muscles use longer fibers. A genengineered human with 2/3rds of the muscle mass made of long strand, fast-twitch muscle, as opposed to the normal 1/2 of the mass being fast-twitch, would be about 1.5x as strong as a normal human of the same weight. He'd also be clumsier, with less fine motor control, and would get fatigued a lot quicker. The actual changes would be at least a species modification. It might be possible to address the fatigue problem by adding organs to influence the production of lactic acid, lactate, and all the other chemicals in the Krebs and Cori cycles, but I'm not a biologist so the feasibility of that is really beyond me. The Krebs and Cori cycles are pretty fundamental metabolic processes, and I expect that improving them is pretty sophisticated science.[1] Any changes here are definitely radical species modifications. I think for primates, muscle strength is strongly dependent on muscle mass. You can trade-off instant performance for endurance or vice versa, but for the same amount of endurance, the only way we currently know to increase strength is to increase mass. Neridalbel's suggestions for trying to optimize around the breaking point of the muscles is another approach that might or might not work. Even if it works, it's going to have additional complications, like needing to eat a lot more - if you're making the existing muscles work near their maximum ability routinely, you're going to need more energy in general and presumably more proteins to repair the additional damage the muscles are taking.[2] [1] Influencing them is easy, but improving them so your fast-twitch muscles have the endurance of slow-twitch muscles without causing other problems is probably not easy. Evolution has spent billions of years optimizing these systems, so making them better will require a lot of work. [2] By analogy, the Italians prior to WWII developed a 15" naval cannon that fired rounds at about 150 m/s faster than everyone else's. The higher velocity gave the rounds more range and armor penetration, but dramatically shortened the barrel's firing life. The US or Japan could have made similar changes, but while the Italians expected their fleet to operate very near to their bases where it would be easy to replace the barrels, the US and Japanese fleets were expected to be roaming all over the Pacific and the admirals did not want to try swap barrels in a hurry at some flyspeck atoll. Upping the performance by operating closer to the limits of unsafe performance would be a similar trade-off: more performance now, more maintenance later. __________________ Read my GURPS blog: http://noschoolgrognard.blogspot.com

07-13-2018, 07:26 AM	#4
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Bioengineering/Strength and Weight Weight and ST are not necessarily linked in GURPS (the minimum weight of an average ST 10 person in 115 lbs while the minimum weight of a ST 14 person is 170 lbs, a 48% increase in mass for a 96% increase in capabilities (or 1.5x for 2x for simplicity). That suggests that the minimum weight for ST 20 should be 251 lbs, 372 lbs for ST 25, etc). This is for human-scale creatures though, and the vast majority of people will not be optimized to that extent.

07-13-2018, 01:14 PM	#6
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Bioengineering/Strength and Weight Those are average values for animals based off their racial templates. If you look at the average weight given for ST 10, the ST for the human racial template, it does not even apply to average humans, as their maximum average weight for ST 10 is 175 lbs, which is above [(HP+1)/2]^3). In fact, the weight range in Characters (p. 18) breaks the range of [(HP-1)/2]^3 to [(HP+1)/2]^3 for humans. Maximum average weight at ST 14 is 270 lbs, which is below the lower end of the range. Anyway, weight is an aesthetic choice, if someone wants a ST 14 character at 150 lbs or a ST 8 character at 250 lbs, both with average build, Characters (p.18) says that the GM should let them have it. Bioengineering also involves making stronger characters with normal human builds by optimizing tissue development through genetic engineering. At least in my games, a parahuman race with +10 ST would determine their weight based off their unmodified ST, meaning that they would be an average of four times as strong (and twice as durable) per pound of body weight as a normal human. If I want them to be larger, I will just give them increased SM or increased body build as well as increased ST.

07-13-2018, 02:18 PM	#8
Flyndaran Untagged Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon	Re: Bioengineering/Strength and Weight Realistic bones denser than optimal become sub-optimal not superhuman. Vertebrate muscle is relatively uniform in performance at least at the Gurps granularity level. Really realistically, the best way to increase strength and toughness is by increasing mass. If you're not going fully realistic, then the only issue becomes one of pseudo-scientific justification. What works for that is up to the individual GM and players. __________________ Beware, poor communication skills. No offense intended. If offended, it just means that I failed my writing skill check.

07-13-2018, 02:47 PM	#10
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Bioengineering/Strength and Weight Conditioning is the best way to increase ST and HP, as muscle mass and bone density increase while fat decreases, and individual muscle fibers and bone tissues become stronger and tougher. Conditioned muscle and bones are stronger and tougher per pound than normal muscle or bone. With increased ST and increased HP, you end up with more muscle and bone and better muscle and bone.