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Old 03-28-2013, 09:01 PM   #31
Kalzazz
 
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Default Re: [Ultra Tech] Shortening Range

There big and look cool, and there cannon fire is cool looking, and you can put them in parades? They also are very cheap (they cost 350k in High Tech, through the miracles of plotholes and pixie dust, UT TL T72 knockoffs are magically assumed to be much cheaper)

They also are moderately resistant to small arms fire, and if the enemies are kind enough to attack their bow, moderately resistant to things which are bigger, and even at UT TL there weapons can still have some effect

Militias are not expected to be able to stand up against a full fledged invasion force, but, it is hoped that local militias can make an enemy decide to attack someone else, or failing that die slowly enough to buy time for assistance to arrive
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:12 PM   #32
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Default Re: [Ultra Tech] Shortening Range

Well, for that particular setting, the sorts of hoodlums who in the current day prefer Technicals might instead consider deploying TL6 type stuff such as the conveniently statted Sherman or Panzer IV, as it is generally held in the setting that TL 6 stuff can be knocked out conveniently and easily like modern day criminals make zip guns

TL7 stuff is somewhat trickier, TL7 stuff can be viewed like the future analogue of Sten guns in buildability

Your friendly T72 knockoff is made of slabs of primitive alloys and such that can be churned out by an low end autofac with pretty wide tolerances with debateably skilled employees, like with modern license plates
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Old 03-29-2013, 03:43 AM   #33
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Default Re: [Ultra Tech] Shortening Range

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Run mysteries.
That's not really useful to the discussion. It's sort of like the joke about the guy who goes to the doctor and says "My neck hurts when I turn it like this" to which the doctor says "Don't turn it like that."

Yeah, I could skip all this mess just by running a murder mystery in space, but if that were the case, I wouldn't actually need to ask how to fix an element that isn't necessary to my genre. I want to run action. Really epic, powerful action that centers on the individual hero and really emphasizes how cool future-tech is... only future-tech tends to de-emphasize the individual hero except as master of industry and infrastructure, which is a fine idea, but not (in this particular instance) what I'm looking for.

I don't want to get into specifics, because I don't want to stymie conversation, and other people might have slightly different interests and still find the topic useful. But "Well then, don't run action" isn't that useful to me or to them, I should think.
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Old 03-29-2013, 07:09 AM   #34
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Default Re: [Ultra Tech] Shortening Range

This discussion actually reminds me of something I have heard about modern combat ranges - since I don't know where I heard it or when I can't prove it but it is interesting - that these ranges have become shorter in recent years (averagely spoken that is). The reason seems to be more urbanised combat environment combined with a descent size non-target populace (civilians mostly), so the only way to find and defeat the targets is to go from door to door, house to house.

Of course the above is only true when fighting something that is not a 'total war' (a war wherein every resource is made available for the war effort).

In short to have relative close and personal combat with normal high or ultra tech equipment the following seems to be needed:
  • Some reason why a place can't be shelled/nuked/shot from orbit reasons can be
    • Civilians in the area (when it is illegal or otherwise not a good idea to destroy them)
    • Infrastructure you intent to capture and use(like harbours, airfields, spaceports, etc)
    • Some defence mechanism that can only be destroyed by a small team of specialists (like the earlier mentioned shields)
    • Some or all of the above
  • Urbanized environment or any other environment with short lines of sight
  • At least somewhat mobile warfare (trenches are not really the thing I am thinking of when I am imaging close and personal combat)
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Old 03-29-2013, 07:26 AM   #35
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Default Re: [Ultra Tech] Shortening Range

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Of course the above is only true when fighting something that is not a 'total war' (a war wherein every resource is made available for the war effort).

In short to have relative close and personal combat with normal high or ultra tech equipment the following seems to be needed:[LIST][*] Some reason why a place can't be shelled/nuked/shot from orbit reasons can be[INDENT][LIST][*] Civilians in the area (when it is illegal or otherwise not a good idea to destroy them)[*] Infrastructure you intent to capture and use(like harbours, airfields, spaceports, etc)[*] Some defence mechanism that can only be destroyed by a small team of specialists (like the earlier mentioned shields)
Not just Infrastructure either.
You can have rescue missions for hostages or even liberating a POW camp or the enemy may hold prisoners in high value targets to discourage assault.

Also intelligence resources.
The location may also not be conducive to easily getting your long range weaponry on target.
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Old 03-29-2013, 08:59 AM   #36
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Default Re: [Ultra Tech] Shortening Range

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At least somewhat mobile warfare (trenches are not really the thing I am thinking of when I am imaging close and personal combat)
Actually, close and personal combat was an important part of trench warfare. The trenches may have good fields of fire, but to actually make progress against them you kind of need to seize the enemy trenches...and trenches are such good cover it's nearly impossible to force the defenders out without going in yourself.
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:01 AM   #37
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Default Re: [Ultra Tech] Shortening Range

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
Not just Infrastructure either.
You can have rescue missions for hostages or even liberating a POW camp or the enemy may hold prisoners in high value targets to discourage assault.
On the other hand depending on the current culture, politics and the exact ratio of how valuable the target is vs the potential 'collateral damage' in a specific setting they might hit it with some form of fire support anyway. Of course that comes down to how far you want to move towards reality on the whole realism vs cinematic scale.
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:22 AM   #38
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Default Re: [Ultra Tech] Shortening Range

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What remotely believable suggestions do you have for keeping ultra-tech combat to visual range?
Can you link us to a working example in popular media of what you're looking for?
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:28 AM   #39
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Default Re: [Ultra Tech] Shortening Range

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Actually, close and personal combat was an important part of trench warfare. The trenches may have good fields of fire, but to actually make progress against them you kind of need to seize the enemy trenches...and trenches are such good cover it's nearly impossible to force the defenders out without going in yourself.
I stand corrected.

Anyway I forget something (at least for ultra-tech) there is a need for something to prevent telepresences (sp?) so there are no drones. Personally not to worried about AI because IMHO good enough AI could be PCs.
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Old 03-29-2013, 01:08 PM   #40
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Default Re: [Ultra Tech] Shortening Range

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Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
Well, for that particular setting, the sorts of hoodlums who in the current day prefer Technicals might instead consider deploying TL6 type stuff such as the conveniently statted Sherman or Panzer IV, as it is generally held in the setting that TL 6 stuff can be knocked out conveniently and easily like modern day criminals make zip guns

TL7 stuff is somewhat trickier, TL7 stuff can be viewed like the future analogue of Sten guns in buildability

Your friendly T72 knockoff is made of slabs of primitive alloys and such that can be churned out by an low end autofac with pretty wide tolerances with debateably skilled employees, like with modern license plates
I don't think TL9 or 10 scratch armor would actually resemble a T-72 that closely.

As technology marches on, not everything slides at the same rate.

You might (might) use a similar hull form and overall plan. But you'll probably vary in more respects than you imitate.

You'll probably replace the engine with a modern consumer powerplant. With a multi-TL advantage you'll likely get something that's better and cheaper than re-constructing a 20th century relic. It may take different fuel. You'll certainly modernize the optics and electronics using modern either civilian-standard or military-surplus off-the-shelf parts, either of which will make the original gear look like garbage. You might keep the weapon system, though you could probably do better without raising the production cost and surely could improve some of the ammo at least. It would almost certainly add a bunch of external cameras for better visibility and a remote controlled mount for the anti-air machinegun.
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