How Much Treasure?

[Gumby Bush]

From the first purchases thread:

Originally Posted by clu2415

I’m new to DF and my party just brought our first haul back to town. My polearm-fighting barbarian found a cool suit of armor, a nifty throwing axe, and his cut of the loot is $9000. What are your usual first purchases?

Originally Posted by xlyce

At the risk of derailing the barbarian's post, the group I am running has way less money that this, am I being chintzy?

I did give them a penetrating mace of might this week though, and some icy darts (I call them menthols).

In DF8, it notes that regular expenses tend to be around $250/adventurer to break even and seems to suggest offering another $500/adventurer after discounts for sales. It assumes the dungeon is a week away and that it takes 1 (in game) day to clear. It is not clear how many sessions that assumes.

In my current campaign, which is not strictly DFRPG but I think it's close enough for this question, I've given around $13,980 to 3 adventurers over two dungeons and almost 10 sessions. So that's 13980/6 per adventure per PC = $2,330 per adventure per PC. They haven't gotten a chance to spend it, some of that was lost by use (some healing potions and a couple of scrolls), and at least one piece of treasure is being kept as a trophy.

I am also giving about 1 Character Point per hr of play, which may or may not correlate.


So, how much treasure do you give? Are you being intentionally generous or stingy? How does it play?

[ULFGARD]

I give out treasure according to what I think would be in the location they raid. In my campaign, the PCs have ended up going after slavers on numerous occasions, hitting the homes of the wealthy and taking the loot. Most of these places are lavish, and have a fair amount of loot readily on hand.

This has made them very rich. But... They've ended up using it. They have lots of toys. And they end up using them against odds which would destroy a party without them.

We're all having fun, so it really doesn't matter whether it's too much or too little. And all of that loot, plus in game events, have caused the PCs to choose the general arc of the campaign.

[Kromm]

I don't assess treasure on the basis of what I want the PCs to have, but on the basis of what makes sense. Is this the greatest lost tomb of an ancient culture famed for its gold? There will be lots of gold. Are the enemies masters of dark necromancy? There will be lots of sinister magic items. And so on.

Three things keep this from unbalancing the campaign:

1. Goodies aren't always salable. Certain goods are heavily taxed, controlled (often by guilds), or outright illegal. Loot from dungeons is often reputed to be cursed or bad luck, or just risky because associates of the monsters who used to own it might come looking for it. Many things aren't trusted, especially potions (there could be anything in that bottle!) and anything produced by "monster races." Writings in lost languages are worthless on the open market. Quite a few artifacts are useful to delvers . . . but not so much to townsfolk, who have little use for them and offer low prices. Thus, a huge haul with a massive nominal cash value might result in a modest payday.

2. Goodies aren't always useful. Conversely, the stuff that is useful to townsfolk, and thus worth money, isn't always useful to delvers. They might leave it behind without ever knowing its value. It could be too heavy to haul. And even if it's brought back and turned into money, see the next point.

3. Money doesn't equal goodies. Specialized or illicit tools are produced only by a select few craftspeople, and are usually either marked-up special orders that take time to arrive or goods available only after a long trip to the place where they're made. Armor must be crafted to fit – and metal armor takes a while. Fine weapons are critical-success results, not production items; finding them for sale is often a matter of visiting dozens of merchants for months. Magic items beyond the cheapest potions aren't usually for sale. Bespoke enchantments are, but take months or years . . . during which time you'll be without the item receiving them. And on on.

The trick is not to fill dungeons with powerful, ready-to-use items like one-size-fits-all armor with massive DR, high-powered magic weapons that match the heroes' precise weapon skills, and things that boost attributes. Fill them with weird stuff that can be used but not sold, or sold but not used. Make a lot of it heavy. And make sure that dragging it all back to town doesn't guarantee being able to trade up for precisely what's needed.

The first dungeon ever of the campaign that inspired GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, and eventually the Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game, was full of stuff that townsfolk refused to touch, because it came from a tomb and was therefore "cursed" (some of it was, some of it wasn't). There were tons of armor and weapons, but that stuff was heavy and the PCs had to cart it back on foot several days from the middle of a desert, so they left most of it behind (where it was promptly grabbed by scavengers). The nicest weapons corresponded to weapon skills nobody had; several players started using them at default, eventually spending points on new skills and leaving old ones untouched. The best armor was cheap-but-functional, to be worn but not sold; the most expensive armor was ornate-but-fragile, to be sold but not worn. Loot was super-generous, but choices had to be made.

[Mister Negative]

For me, I kind of work at it backwards, in DFPRG or in most other games.

How much loot should there be to support the type of play that I want to have?

If I want the delvers to be comfortable buying consumable items, having specialized equipment (more than they just carry around all the time), and swank gear, I make sure that I'm creating some sort of adventure that supports getting that sort of loot if it's done right.

If I want them to be cautious and conservative with their purchases, I try to design an adventure that doesn't give out that level of loot. If I want the adventure to be more about cleverness and guile than blasting and hacking (not that DFPRG is usually that way), I don't give out the money or gear that supports wholesale hacking.

Then I also try to make sure that the nature of the delve and the expectations of the delvers are somewhat in sync. There's no reason sensible delvers will go into some death-infested hellhole if the expectation is that it's also filled with unshiftable, accursed loot--and also, no reason for them to expect sweet stashes of loot in some comfortable cakewalk that any scavenger could have swiped. That's not to say that you have to reward foolish behavior, or never subvert their expectations, but there's a reason they are delvers and not just holding down a safe job in Towne.

However, I do find that it's easier to be generous than to be stingy. Most stuff is sold at a significant loss of value, and it's fairly easy to dangle something expensive and tempting in front of a delver to split them from their cash. Plus, often, the expensive thing you thought they would sell for the gold, they will keep, and sell the cheap equipment you were giving them just to use!

[Anders]

Remember also that the players will find loot where you don't expect it. I had my players in an old church, and they quickly discovered that the most valuable item was the 300 lb. bronze church bell.

[Malfi]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I don't assess treasure on the basis of what I want the PCs to have, but on the basis of what makes sense.

What about the way dnd more or less has done it? The treasure is loosely connected to how dangerous the monsters or challenges are?
Adnd 1e and 2e connected treasure tables to specific monsters, while DnD3e edition connected it to monsters challenge rating.
Is there a way you can do this in DF?

[johndallman]

To me, the amount of loot should be widely variable. There should be the occasional big payoff, but a high proportion of days in the dungeon should be financial losses. This feels much more plausible than a fairly stable income from delving.

[xlyce]

I talked to my wife, who plays in the game and she says I don't give enough treasure and loot...

The have received some money and a few things that are not typical (aside from the mace and the menthols), such as herbs (for potions), a lot of armour that has to be sold cheaply, a flaming sword, and cash.

I really wanted them to get amour divisor gear, because they are facing creatures that have DR 7 and barely anyone can hit them, also, the cleric that took the mace was feeling a little underappreciated.

My wife's character has about 8K in cash plus armour with 25% lighten on it, and we have done 3 printed adventures plus some other of the cuff stuff.

[Bruno]

I err on the side of "too much treasure". I can always take it away if I don't like how things are going (Or at least threaten it so players take it more seriously).

As the GM, I'm never going to run out of treasure, just like I'm never going to run out of orcs. If they beat up my orcs, that's OK. There's always more orcs. Same goes with the treasure.

A good way I've found to "soak up" character money is with "vanity" items. Players will spend an absurd amount of in-game money (or even real money) in videogames for hats, non-combat cosmetic pets[1], mounts[2], making their weapon "look cool", fancy names that float over their heads, etc. Treasure that's just plain old jewlery or clothing or cloth, with an interesting description, will catch players fancy and they'll end up wearing the tiara out of the dungeon instead of their helmet, and refuse to sell it. Because I look fabulous! Make sure there's a store with hats with feathers in them, and have available an ever-escalating series of bigger and flashier feathers.

These kinds of vanity items are treasure, even if they're not intended for sale, and players really value them in ways they may not value a utilitarian item.

[1] It's a small thing that follows your character around and has cute animations. That's it. No benefits, it's just cute.

[2] You might be able to get a "standard" mount for a low-low-low fee, but then it will be you and everyone else on the same griffon (or whatever). OR you could slave away for two months to earn faction reputation and then spend an absurd amount of money for a hippogriff... which is exactly like the griffon in all ways, except it looks different.

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by Bruno

A good way I've found to "soak up" character money is with "vanity" items.

Yes! As a player I love being able to get bespoke gear that’s customized for my character. And there’s just so much to spend money on. Why stay at the fleabag inn when you can afford the Ritz? Better meals, clothing, henchmen, magic, mounts, ships... there is no limit to what people can spend to support a lavish lifestyle.

I tend to like treasure to feel relevant to its source. I’m not too concerned with keeping it at their “level.” Like Bruno, I am fairly generous. I find that a bit of money helps players to engage with the world.

Of course this depends on the campaign premise. If it’s a gritty campaign where the PC’s are designed as struggling street rats, I would take a more stingy approach.