Rules Questions from Play

[Tywyll]

I was introducing my friends to Melee and Wizard and a couple of situation cropped up we weren't clear on how to resolve by the book. We did out own thing and moved on, but still.

1) When in the Dex order does a character with a ranged weapon shoot at a target that engages them? It simply says 'before' the opponent engages them, but the dex count isn't clear. This became important when a Wizard wanted to Sleep the same figure that was charging their friend. Depending on how you read it, since the wizard and the opponent had the same dex, if the missile user fired as the wizard was casting it would have messed up the sleep spell (waking the target immediately).

2) If you disengage from an opponent who ran their full MA to engage you, do they still get a free swing if their Dex is also higher than yours?

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by Tywyll

Depending on how you read it, since the wizard and the opponent had the same dex, if the missile user fired as the wizard was casting it would have messed up the sleep spell (waking the target immediately).

Wizards Rules page 5: "Figures act in the order of their adjDX, highest first; ties are resolved by die roll."

ITL 107: "If adjDX is tied, the figures on the side with initiative go first. Within that side, if it matters, the figure with the highest basic DX goes first. If there are still ties, roll the dice."

Originally Posted by Tywyll

2) If you disengage from an opponent who ran their full MA to engage you, do they still get a free swing if their Dex is also higher than yours?

There is no "free swing".

ITL 102: "(A figure can never attack if it moved more than half its MA.)"

Assume Albert moves first. The sequence is that Albert spends his full move to end adjacent to and facing Charlie. Charlie can then stand still or shift one hex. When Charlie's turn to act comes (in adjDX order) he steps back one hex.

Then Charlie

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Wizards Rules page 5: "Figures act in the order of their adjDX, highest first; ties are resolved by die roll."

ITL 107: "If adjDX is tied, the figures on the side with initiative go first. Within that side, if it matters, the figure with the highest basic DX goes first. If there are still ties, roll the dice."

That doesn't answer my question. When does the archer's shot go? Does it go off at the attacker's Dex? Does it go 'before' and if so, how much 'before'?

There is no "free swing".

ITL 102: "(A figure can never attack if it moved more than half its MA.)"

Assume Albert moves first. The sequence is that Albert spends his full move to end adjacent to and facing Charlie. Charlie can then stand still or shift one hex. When Charlie's turn to act comes (in adjDX order) he steps back one hex.

Then Charlie

Okay so that trumps the Disengage Rule that when you disengage a higher dex opponent gets an attack. Fair enough.

[Skarg]

The word "before" does not mean the missile weapon fires out of the usual adjDX sequence. It means the weapon needs to be ready and loaded before the user got engaged, because you can't reload a missile weapon while engaged. So you can fire your last shot (when your adjDX comes up, whether or not the enemy attacks you first), but then you can't reload while still engaged.

Moving full MA does not allow an attack.

Disengaging also doesn't grant free swings, except in some house rules.

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by Skarg

The word "before" does not mean the missile weapon fires out of the usual adjDX sequence. It means the weapon needs to be ready and loaded before the user got engaged, because you can't reload a missile weapon while engaged. So you can fire your last shot (when your adjDX comes up, whether or not the enemy attacks you first), but then you can't reload while still engaged.

"ONE-LAST-SHOT MISSILE ATTACK. If the figure
had a missile weapon ready before it was engaged, it may get
off one last shot. (You can almost always release an arrow at
a charging enemy.)"'

An enemy engaged with you is no longer charging.

But rereading it, I guess I see what you mean, even if that makes no narritive sense...either you shoot them as they run up to you or you shoot while engaged in melee which you aren't supposed to be doing. The logic of shooting as they run at you makes sense, not after the fact.

Moving full MA does not allow an attack.

Disengaging also doesn't grant free swings, except in some house rules.

It's not about free swings, its about the way the fact that faster Dx opponents get a swing at you as you disengage is worded. It would be clearer if it stated that a figure who can't attack you doesn't count as engaging you or something. Or if it said that if the figure doesn't get an attack or has attacked another figure they can't swing when you disengage. or something.

[Skarg]

(Some people have suggested house rules about last missiles shots coming before pole weapon charge attacks, with the same rationale used there, only noting that ranged attacks would have even more reach. If the narrative aspect bothers you, I would suggest playing it that way. The issue however is that somehow being charged makes such archers faster than other archers not being charged... my solution would be to house rule a DX penalty for doing a last shot before your usual adjDX.)

The disengagement comment is just trying to point out the logical consequence of the rule. It just means that since disengagement happens when the figure's adj DX comes up, that higher adj DX foes could take their action to attack them before they get to disengage.

[Original_Carl]

Depending on how you read it, since the wizard and the opponent had the same dex, if the missile user fired as the wizard was casting it would have messed up the sleep spell (waking the target immediately).

Nothing happens simultaneously. Movement happens in order of initiative, action happens in order of dex. Roll dice to resolve ties.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Tywyll

that makes no narritive sense...either you shoot them as they run up to you or you shoot while engaged in melee which you aren't supposed to be doing.

The narrative sense is fine. You release that last arrow as they run up to you. Turns are five seconds long, and beyond that, there's no pretense that the game mechanics are a millisecond-by-millisecond simulation of every motion in a battle.

Mechanically, actions are resolved per the rules, and nothing is simultaneous. Few people would argue that it makes no "narrative sense", because two people certainly can do things at the same time. There's no law of physics dictating that one person moves while everyone else is frozen in place; then, people start moving in ways that aren't major translations of their center of mass, but still can only do so one at a time while everyone else is frozen in place; and then, the clock suddenly jumps by 5.00000000 seconds. Clearly, that's not what's really happening. So why get concerned about the recitation of the game resolution order of just this one sequence not exactly matching some one of the reasonable narrative descriptions of the action, when nothing in a combat turn exactly matches the narrative description of everything that happens in a complex, fluid, battle with many independent actors?

In the original scenario, the Sleep spell will be cast at the wizard's place in the adjDX order, wherever that happens to be relative to the archer, maybe before, maybe after. If the wizard's to-hit roll is successful, the spell takes effect immediately, before the archer can act (if he hasn't already acted).

If he's awake when his turn comes to act (among the many other possible hazards of being on the battlefield), the archer gets to shoot at the target that just moved to engage him by choosing Option (l), "ONE-LAST-SHOT MISSILE ATTACK" in the list of options for engaged figures. That's merely a different option than the one you might choose if you're disengaged, not a declaration that the entire turn sequence is reordered with actions coming before movement to accommodate this one case, trying to cope with a (hypothetical non-existent) rule that says "you can never attack with a missile weapon while engaged".

See Option (j), "SHIFT AND ATTACK", which says you attack with a non-missile weapon. You certainly can't choose this option while engaged in order to attack with a missile weapon. But that doesn't prohibit you from choosing some other option. Option (f), "MISSILE WEAPON ATTACK", is off in the list for disengaged figures, so the archer can't choose that option, either. But then, he doesn't have to choose that option in order to use a missile weapon. There's Option (l) in the engaged list he can choose, as long as his missile weapon was ready before he was engaged.

(The rule doesn't even actually say you have to shoot at the figure that engaged you. That's the sense of the following sentence that's a justification for the existence of this option, but that comment isn't clearly part of the rule per se, so it's a bit ambiguous. Luckily, that quibble is irrelevant to this question.)

As long as the archer remains continuously engaged, he won't be able to choose Option (l) again, because he doesn't have a ready missile weapon -- and Option (m) in the engaged list doesn't let you ready a missile weapon. The archer will have to disengage, and if no one re-engages his, can then choose Option (e) to ready his bow, and on the turn after that, perhaps he'll be able to choose Option (f) during his action phase if he's still disengaged.

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by Tywyll

I was introducing my friends to Melee and Wizard and a couple of situation cropped up we weren't clear on how to resolve by the book. We did out own thing and moved on, but still.

1) When in the Dex order does a character with a ranged weapon shoot at a target that engages them? It simply says 'before' the opponent engages them, but the dex count isn't clear. This became important when a Wizard wanted to Sleep the same figure that was charging their friend. Depending on how you read it, since the wizard and the opponent had the same dex, if the missile user fired as the wizard was casting it would have messed up the sleep spell (waking the target immediately).

2) If you disengage from an opponent who ran their full MA to engage you, do they still get a free swing if their Dex is also higher than yours?

A1) attacks are in adjDX order. The last attack from a bow while engaged rule is the exception to the rule that prevent archery while engaged. It allows the archer one last shot, but it does not alter the adjDX sequence. So, the archer got engaged during movement, then that same turn during actions that archer gets to fire ONE arrow (even if he is fast enough for two) and does so in sequence based on his and others adjDX.

If he is lucky enough that by next turn he is no longer engaged (say his last shot killed the attacker) he gets to keep his bow out. Otherwise he must drop the bow.

A2) Higher DX guy does not get to attack the disengaging guy, because highter DX guy ran his full movement. thus he gets no actions this turn. If higher DX guy had run only half his MA, then he would get an attack off before the slower guy would be able to disengage.

I hope that helps.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

If he is lucky enough that by next turn he is no longer engaged (say his last shot killed the attacker) he gets to keep his bow out. Otherwise he must drop the bow.

Wording seems to be that he drops the bow right after the shot:

ITL 115 "A figure with a missile weapon ready can get off one shot if suddenly engaged, but must then [at what point?] drop the missile weapon."

And also that he can keep the bow in hand as long as he likes:

ITL 117 "You may “parry” with a bow or crossbow – but it will be ruined!"