Building a ship

[Stormcrow]

Suppose you're a TL3 character. What would the skill be to build a TL3 ship?

Engineer says it's the skill "design and build" things, but I've always imagined the design part to be more important than the build part. That is, someone with Engineer/TL3 (Ships) could design a ship, but wouldn't necessarily be out there hammering on a frame. Or does knowledge of how to build a ship necessarily imply that one could design a ship as well?

Carpentry skill says you can make things out of wood, but does every carpenter know how to make everything? I don't think so. Would a carpenter, under the direction of an engineer, have the complete set of skills needed?

What's the right skill here?

[Gigermann]

You want Low-Tech Companion 3 - Daily Life and Economics—goes over "crafting" in detail

[Anaraxes]

Engineering skills don't include the skills for actually working with the materials involved. A TL3 ship will likely require some Carpentry, for example. There's probably other skills involved (Leatherworking if it's a coracle, Blacksmithing to make any hardware needed like rudder hinges or pins, Sewing for sails, Professional Skill (Ropemaking), etc.)

See the Design-Repair-Use box on B190. The triad concept has its problems, perhaps. But if you're a one-man boat design and construction outfit, you'll need more than one skill even ignoring the "use" part. The text for Engineer does use the word "build", but I don't think it's meant to grant the "tech" skills for actually working on the things you can design.

Most of the electronics engineers I've known did have those tech skills to some degree -- but were usually not as good as the professional techs, and some didn't have them at all. Maybe there's a default, but it's easiest to assume that it's just two different skills that one person happens to have in greater or lesser relative degree.

[whswhs]

My general assumption is that up until the Renaissance, you don't have the profession of engineering, and not many people have the Engineer skill (though there are special cases such as parts of ancient Greece). Most ships (for example) are built to traditional designs. The main skill required is the repair skill, which in this case is Carpenter, often with an optional specialization (most woodworkers specialize; other examples are wheelwright, cartwright, house carpenter, cabinetmaker, and eventually barrelmaker). When originality is needed, you mostly have a skilled craftsman roll against an Engineer skill that defaults to Carpenter-6. On the other hand, some skilled craftsmen do buy up Engineer (Ships) after making a few default rolls.

[AlexanderHowl]

Professional Skill (Shipwright) would probably be better than Carpentry for the hull, keel, and masts (it would probably default to Carpentry-3 though).

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Professional Skill (Shipwright) would probably be better than Carpentry for the hull, keel, and masts (it would probably default to Carpentry-3 though).

Do you also want Professional Skill (housewright) for the frame of a house?

[Varyon]

LTC3 states that vehicular carpentry uses Mechanic, and indeed the shipwright has that skill rather than Carpentry, for the “build” portion. Said shipwright uses Engineer for the “design” portion. In cultures where people always build traditional designs, a typical shipwright probably lacks Engineer (as noted above), and his monthly job roll would be against Mechanic (Ships). A default between Carpentry and Mechanic (Ships) is likely appropriate, of course.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Varyon

LTC3 states that vehicular carpentry uses Mechanic, and indeed the shipwright has that skill rather than Carpentry, for the “build” portion. Said shipwright uses Engineer for the “design” portion. In cultures where people always build traditional designs, a typical shipwright probably lacks Engineer (as noted above), and his monthly job roll would be against Mechanic (Ships). A default between Carpentry and Mechanic (Ships) is likely appropriate, of course.

I would go for Mechanic if the ship's structure includes the system that propels it (as in masts), and maybe if it includes guidance (rudders). If it's rowed, and you use a steering oar, so the wooden parts are essentially passive, I think Carpentry would do just as well.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I would go for Mechanic if the ship's structure includes the system that propels it (as in masts), and maybe if it includes guidance (rudders). If it's rowed, and you use a steering oar, so the wooden parts are essentially passive, I think Carpentry would do just as well.

I could get behind that, and extend it to allowing Carpentry to stand in for Mechanic when building/repairing the "passive" bits of the structure. Basically, Mechanic (Ship) essentially covers all parts of all watercraft (of the appropriate TL), but you can instead use just Carpentry for simple boats or simple parts of a larger vessel. Considering Mechanic is Average and Carpentry is Easy, this seems fair.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by Gigermann

You want Low-Tech Companion 3 - Daily Life and Economics—goes over "crafting" in detail

I've got that! I'm having trouble finding anything that identifies the skills used for building (not designing) ships.

Originally Posted by Varyon

LTC3 states that vehicular carpentry uses Mechanic, and indeed the shipwright has that skill rather than Carpentry, for the “build” portion. Said shipwright uses Engineer for the “design” portion. In cultures where people always build traditional designs, a typical shipwright probably lacks Engineer (as noted above), and his monthly job roll would be against Mechanic (Ships). A default between Carpentry and Mechanic (Ships) is likely appropriate, of course.

The shipwright occupation listed in Low-Tech Companion 3 appears to be a ship designer, since the job roll is against the Engineer skill, and the occupation is compared to the architect occupation, not the building laborer.

I always thought Mechanic was the skill of repairing things, not constructing things.

I'm coming at this from the angle of a party of adventurers deciding to build themselves a boat rather than as the requirements for a ship-building business. I'm imagining building from a traditional design, not inventing a new design.

So it's looking like Carpentry would be the main skill involved (plus Sewing, etc. for components). Building boats or ships are probably techniques of Carpentry. The repair skill would be either Carpentry or Mechanic (vehicle type).