[Basic] Advantage of the Week (#36): Digital Mind

[Leynok]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Meat-guy and AI-guy are on a spaceship. Something goes wrong, oh-no! The spaceship drifts through space for 100 years! Meat-guy "shuts down" when the life-support fails. AI-guy voluntarily shuts down. In one hundred years AI-guy is rebooted and delivers the eulogy at Meat-guy's funeral.

Which means that the game either was about keeping alive and this is the result of us failing, or the game is about fixing this problem so meat man can still live. If AI-guy had a biological body, he would be just as dead as Meat-guy, because his body would still need nutrients over time while he slept - only someone who was made completely of unliving materials would survive in that instance.

If that event that went wrong happened out of nowhere, with no way to fix it for Meat-man to survive... Well I would probably react the same way as any GM who pulls something out of their rear to unfairly kill one or more PC characters.

In short, I see such an event as rare enough to ever happen with any GM that is both fair and fun, that the situation isn't worth considering for how much points the trait is worth.

[sir_pudding]

I guess if being software-based does literally nothing it isn't worth points in your games. I am not sure what the point of this thread is though, if it isn't to talk about how it could be worth the points.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Careful if you don't want to derail the thread. ;) Since you are unaware, I think Magery may indeed be too setting-specific for [Basic]. I've made clear I have some issues with it in more than one thread on these message boards. It is a specious argument anyway, as it would just mean there are two traits that aren't as generic or universal as they ought to be, which made it into [Basic].

Any supernatural trait is absolutely NON generic, that also includes ALL cinematographic traits. I mean, a game about investigative mysteries, or international spying, or sword and bucklers pirates, all about grit realism, would make no sense to have a telepath with mind probe or a guy using chambara gun fu.

What makes GURPS generic is that it have the traits you would need in any genre, not that all its traits are absolutely generic in usable by EVERY genres.

It is absolutely within the scope of GURPS to place Corruption, for example, as one of its traits, even if its something that is almost only for a game of Horror

Originally Posted by Otaku

Realism is also a separate issue, as GURPS doesn't just cover gritty realism, but allows for both fantastic elements and stylized fictional settings. Past editions are also a factor. If Digital Mind is in Third Edition, I missed it. I checked GURPS Update and Compendium I and found no mention of it. Magery has been in GURPS since what, the beginning? At least Second Edition; in the face of limited book space that might justify including it over a less generic trait.

I would rather both traits had been made more generic and universal, however; not sure how well it could be done with Magery, but Bruno provided us an example already for Digital Mind, earlier in this thread.

Magery and Digital Mind will only become a problem when the highest and lowest levest of appereance are; all those Enthralment skills, all those which require "Trained by a Master", afflictions, Mind Probe, Invisibility, Insubstancial, Warp, Jump... Hell, just thrash the 4th edition as a whole, that book is not generic at all.

And, in search of the most pure "generic", we end up with a game... That allows you to play with humans, in a real-like world.

Not generic at all.

Like I said above, being "generic" means covering all the specifics , not making everything needing to be generalized.

Originally Posted by Otaku

I hope the discussion with Leynok and Anthony, that occurred since the comment I quoted, has made this clear to you. It isn't just about how many settings include a trait, but how a setting handles the trait. I inquired about real examples of Digital Mind because so many of its traits are assumed, and often based on specifics of the setting or assumed physiology of the character.

Yet, you can have magical constructs with Digital Mind, or Bioroids. Both are non-machine beings. AND you can have machines without it (do you wanna an example? A fantascomp, the "ghost" -memories- of a person inhabiting a computer hardware RAM memory)

Originally Posted by Otaku

• Why does traditional telepathy or magic not work on a Digital Mind?

• It just don't. Tell me, what is telepathy, "traditional" or otherwise?
  Thats what the trait is. Just like that. If that feels odd to you... Well, telepathy lets you "read" other's thoughts. Why? Because... Thats what the trait says that you do.
  
  Why does it bother you one trait being just as written but not the other?
  
  If you wanna it to be affected, just put a limitation
  
  If thats not enough, you can consider, if you wanna, that "traditional" kinds of telepathy only affect "minds connected to a soul", or that "the binary model of the digital mind is incompatible with the multimodal brain mind that is the subject of telepathy", or simply that they are just DIFFERENT. Brain thoughts are multi modal; machines are (orthodoxly) binary (but it COULD be something else).
  
  If you like, you just take away Digital Mind from your game, and make telepathy just as good for meat brains just as much as chip brains in your game world (no matter if those minds are totally alien between each other). Maybe use a penalty of -10 or even -20 (!!!) according to the specialization (telepathy (brains) or telepathy (machines)). Its your game after all.
  

  Originally Posted by Otaku

  Why can a Digital Mind be turned off without ill effect?

  Why Insubstancial makes you immaterial?
  Why does Magery lets you cast spells?
  Why Super Luck lets you determine one role?
  
  Thats just what the trait is... Your question doesn't make any sense when you think by that angle
  
  

  Originally Posted by Otaku

  Why can a digital mind be stored anyplay but the appropriate brain, computer, whatever without suffering ill effect?

Same answer as above

Originally Posted by Otaku

My default approach, when designing a setting with such a thing, is that a copy of a mind (non-digital or digital) is basically a copy of an operating system with some programs to it. If you upload them into a new body, it might think it is that person, but it won't actually be them, just a copy. You've got me wondering if a digital mind, like a human mind, is going to be a hard thing to "suspend"; if the mind isn't "running", does it truly still exist?

Well, so that could be another trait for a Digital Mind... Thats specially the case in settings were "people" have "souls"... When you copy a mind to another body, you dont copy the "soul"... So, in a sense, something will always be missing (exactly what will be a matter of game style).

But, since machines doesn't have "souls", after all, all they are is just their minds... No souls attached. When you take the chip from the T1000's brain and put it in a new body, its the same Android. When you clone someone with that person's memories... Something will lack.

Thats a matter of game world however, mind you

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Leynok

Which means that the game either was about keeping alive and this is the result of us failing, or the game is about fixing this problem so meat man can still live. If AI-guy had a biological body, he would be just as dead as Meat-guy, because his body would still need nutrients over time while he slept - only someone who was made completely of unliving materials would survive in that instance.

If that event that went wrong happened out of nowhere, with no way to fix it for Meat-man to survive... Well I would probably react the same way as any GM who pulls something out of their rear to unfairly kill one or more PC characters.

In short, I see such an event as rare enough to ever happen with any GM that is both fair and fun, that the situation isn't worth considering for how much points the trait is worth.

A Bioroid, a biological Android with a biological brain, could have a brain that was made in a way to work with a binary system, that can be easily uploaded to another bioroid brain, and that can store its memory inside its "meat", even when said brain is not currently "on".

Did you ever saw the HBO serie Westworld? The main characters in that show are EXACTLY that: Bioroids (thus, they have biological bodies AND brains), but they have the Digital Mind trait (their memories can be retrieved even after their bodies and body functions are shutted down - or even after their bodies are "killed" - every time the characters are "killed", their bodies must be fully repaired and restarted, and their minds wiped off - otherwise those poor creatures with go insane with all the memories of thousands of deaths - which end up happening in the end, but... Well, thats spoilers already)

[KarlKost]

So, in case any one asks, what's a non Machine Digital Mind?

The answer: Westworld

[Leynok]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I guess if being software-based does literally nothing it isn't worth points in your games. I am not sure what the point of this thread is though, if it isn't to talk about how it could be worth the points.

And trust me, I would like to see someone give me an example where it would be worth points; I don't mind being proven wrong. However I also expect that example to be something I am likely to see in a game. The example you provided was equivalent to "Rocks fall, everyone dies... Except this one PC.", that's not a game, that's just punishing the other players for not picking up one specific trait that was dependent on your character concept.

Originally Posted by KarlKost

A Bioroid, a biological Android with a biological brain, could have a brain that was made in a way to work with a binary system, that can be easily uploaded to another bioroid brain, and that can store its memory inside its "meat", even when said brain is not currently "on".

Did you ever saw the HBO serie Westworld? The main characters in that show are EXACTLY that: Bioroids (thus, they have biological bodies AND brains), but they have the Digital Mind trait (their memories can be retrieved even after their bodies and body functions are shutted down - or even after their bodies are "killed" - every time the characters are "killed", their bodies must be fully repaired and restarted, and their minds wiped off - otherwise those poor creatures with go insane with all the memories of thousands of deaths - which end up happening in the end, but... Well, thats spoilers already)

This however did make me have a closer look at Digital Mind, and I did somehow miss earlier that Digital Mind does mention being able to be stored as unconscious data in a system.
This example here, along with the detail I missed does somewhat convince me that Digital Mind is worth something. While I believe the examples listed above probably have Unkillable 3 or Extra Lives, it does seem like you could have someone take your Digital Mind from your body before you die, saving you from possible threats.
Though that does mean the line between what Digital Mind does or doesn't need Possession for is somewhat blurred, but not impossible to figure out.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Leynok

This however did make me have a closer look at Digital Mind, and I did somehow miss earlier that Digital Mind does mention being able to be stored as unconscious data in a system.

This is what I have been talking about; stored as unconscious data and rebooted later.

Edit: I think you missed the point of my example. I was trying to show how being able to be rebooted from storage is an advantage over not being able to be rebooted; not something that was illustrative of any game.

Suppose that instead, the biological character was able to escape, but someone needed to stay behind to facilitate this. The Digital Mind could then broadcast itself as data while the ship was destroyed. This wouldn't even require Extra Life, because it isn't reinstated from a backup, but rather downloaded into a replacement body.

That does mean the line between what Digital Mind does or doesn't need Possession for is somewhat blurred, but not impossible to figure out.

Mainly I think that if new instances are treated as the same PC then you need Possession and probably Extra Life (assuming you are backed up). If they aren't then you don't get those traits. This is a setting specific (or beyond that even - a philosophical) choice, but really any Digital Mind can be instantiated on other compatible hardware, that just isn't worth anything if the new instances aren't treated like the same PC (or Allies in the case of Duplication) in your game.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Otaku

• Why does traditional telepathy or magic not work on a Digital Mind?
• Why can a Digital Mind be turned off without ill effect?
• Why can a digital mind be stored anyplay but the appropriate brain, computer, whatever without suffering ill effect?

• Because mind-affecting supernatural powers are usually split between the normal-mind-affecting ones versus cyberpsy / tech magic / etc.
• I'm not seeing it as something that should be taken for granted. Once again consider the case of a Digital Mind running on a bio-brain (as per B48).
• As above.

Originally Posted by Otaku

If you upload them into a new body, it might think it is that person, but it won't actually be them, just a copy.

Them be fightin' words.

[Leynok]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Edit: I think you missed the point of my example. I was trying to show how being able to be rebooted from storage is an advantage over not being able to be rebooted; not something that was illustrative of any game.

Yes, that does seem to be the case. Sorry about that ^^;

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Mainly I think that if new instances are treated as the same PC then you need Possession and probably Extra Life (assuming you are backed up). If they aren't then you don't get those traits. This is a setting specific (or beyond that even - a philosophical) choice, but really any Digital Mind can be instantiated on other compatible hardware, that just isn't worth anything if the new instances aren't treated like the same PC (or Allies in the case of Duplication) in your game.

I think this causes a bit of a problem with what I thought I understood now though. I'll see if I can explain what I mean.
So say we take our example of a meat man and a bioroid with DM; something happens while they're off in space and they are going to die. The human is doomed, but the bioroid shuts himself down by uploading his consciousness into a computer in the hopes that their ship will eventually be found and he'll be able to be reuploaded onto something else.
Now, one of two things happen according to what you said here. Either A) he has Possession, and thus can inhabit a new body once he has been found and be played again by the same PC. Or B) he doesn't have possession, and thus when his consciousness is moved to a new body (since his old bioroid one rotted away), the GM takes control of him.
So what benefit did getting DM really give him then? Does the player feel validated for spending those 5 points to know that there is a copy of them out somewhere while the one they played is as good as dead? If you can't be moved from one body to another without possession, then what's the benefit of being able to upload your consciousness into a computer?

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

This wouldn't even require Extra Life, because it isn't reinstated from a backup, but rather downloaded into a replacement body.

Sorry, I'm not clear on how that isn't the same as Extra Life. Is it because there's a possibility of not being re-downloaded? While Extra Life has the guaranteed replacement warranty? Otherwise they seem the same- you die, but you get to keep playing.