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Old 06-23-2010, 01:39 PM   #11
Edges
 
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Default Re: Monstrous bite as area attack

What kind of creature is this?

I don't mean to be a nit picker but SM+5 ST90 sounds like something supernaturally strong*. If that's what you're going for, great. But if you're comparing it to a T-Rex (a non-supernatural beast), I would suggest tweaking the numbers a little.

An adult T-Rex is SM+5, contrary to what another GURPS supplement may have said. The largest one found was 14 yards long. And it has 45+ ST. The largest one found was 7.5 short tons which would give it a ST49.

If you're talking about a ST90, you're talking about something around 6 times as massive as the largest T-Rex. According to F51, that's going to give you at least a +1 SM for a total of SM+6.

I'd suggest lowering the ST to 70 or increasing the SM to +6...unless of course, you're making a supernatural beaste... in which case, ignore everything I've said. : )

*Even if it's a giant "dwarf" with exceptional stoutness, it's probably going to qualify for a higher SM due to it's roundness.
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Old 06-23-2010, 01:42 PM   #12
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Default Re: Monstrous bite as area attack

14 yards long, but about a third of that is tail. I'm not sure it counts - I certainly don't count a cats tail in computing its SM, and that's a third to a half the body length.
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Old 06-23-2010, 01:51 PM   #13
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Default Re: Monstrous bite as area attack

This thread makes me wonder how you would price the cartoon/supernatural effect of temporarily increasing one's mouth to gigantic sizes in order to literally bite someone's head off.
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:48 PM   #14
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Default Re: Monstrous bite as area attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
What kind of creature is this?
I was being circumspect in case my players read this... There are various candidates in the campaign world. And I didn't want to relaunch the discussion on what stats a T-rex would have. I'm mainly interested in getting round high parries to make huge monsters more frightening than little ones without making them massively skillful.

But a tyrannosaurus works for me. It is Dungeon Fantasy so anything goes. But I got the 90 ST from Lwcamps' T-rex stats in the big T-rex thread which were ST 60 and Striking Strength 30 I think. Its DF and realism isn't a priority however I do like the way ST and especially HP map to size, so thanks for the calculations Edges.
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:54 PM   #15
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Default Re: Monstrous bite as area attack

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14 yards long, but about a third of that is tail. I'm not sure it counts - I certainly don't count a cats tail in computing its SM, and that's a third to a half the body length.
Yeah, I thought of that. But a T-Rex's tail is significantly more substantial than a cat's (even relatively speaking). A cat's tail is probably quite a bit less massive than it's head. While a T-Rex's tail I'd imagine would be more than it's head. On a T-Rex, the tail is less an appendage and more an extension of the torso.

But even if it had no tail at all, it would still be SM+4. The tail alone is at least as big as an ox. I have no problem giving it +1 SM because of it.

Besides, SM+4 only gives a 3 yard Reach whereas SM+5 gives a 5 yard Reach. 5 yards from its feet is a more realistic estimate for its Reach IMO.

EDIT: But of course, you could be right. You probably know the rules better than I anyway. It's really a judgment call AFAICT. I don't have a problem calling a full grown T-Rex SM+4. I just wouldn't do it in my game. (SM+3 on the other hand... I'm not seeing it.)

Last edited by Edges; 06-23-2010 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 06-23-2010, 03:11 PM   #16
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Default Re: Monstrous bite as area attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azinctus View Post
I was being circumspect in case my players read this... There are various candidates in the campaign world. And I didn't want to relaunch the discussion on what stats a T-rex would have. I'm mainly interested in getting round high parries to make huge monsters more frightening than little ones without making them massively skillful.

But a tyrannosaurus works for me. It is Dungeon Fantasy so anything goes. But I got the 90 ST from Lwcamps' T-rex stats in the big T-rex thread which were ST 60 and Striking Strength 30 I think. Its DF and realism isn't a priority however I do like the way ST and especially HP map to size, so thanks for the calculations Edges.
No problem. Sorry about bringing up the "what stats a T-rex would have" discussion again. I'll desist.

It looks like you just need to hit effective SM+7 do get what you want. At least, that's what I get from Kromm's post which is about as definitive as it gets. I guess this means SM+4 and Born Biter 3, SM+5 and Born Biter 2, SM+6 and Born Biter 1, or SM+7.

It's not an exact science, but I'd imagine this would get you anywhere from around ST40 for the SM+4 to ST90 for SM+7. Just to throw numbers out, maybe up to ST45 (SM+4), up to ST55 (SM+5), up to ST70 (SM+6), and up to 90 (SM+7). Then again, this info and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.
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Old 06-23-2010, 06:11 PM   #17
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Default Re: Monstrous bite as area attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
It's not an exact science, but I'd imagine this would get you anywhere from around ST40 for the SM+4 to ST90 for SM+7. Just to throw numbers out, maybe up to ST45 (SM+4), up to ST55 (SM+5), up to ST70 (SM+6), and up to 90 (SM+7). Then again, this info and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.
Don't forget that Striking ST (Bite Only) makes a huge difference for a Born Biter, be it a T-Rex or a Crocodile, and should be at least in the +50% to +100% of normal ST.
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Old 06-23-2010, 07:53 PM   #18
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Default Re: Monstrous bite as area attack

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Originally Posted by Azinctus View Post
I'm mainly interested in getting round high parries to make huge monsters more frightening than little ones without making them massively skillful.
Considering changing the rule about the effective weight of unarmed attacks being ST/10 to it being equivalent to BL/20.

This makes the rule play nicer with scaling and eliminates the sillier results of the RAW rule.
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Old 06-25-2010, 11:05 PM   #19
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Default Re: Monstrous bite as area attack

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Don't forget that Striking ST (Bite Only) makes a huge difference for a Born Biter, be it a T-Rex or a Crocodile, and should be at least in the +50% to +100% of normal ST.
Right. Striking ST (Bite Only).

+50% to +100% seems high to me. But that's just intuition talking as I don't have a clear idea how to judge it.

So I guess I don't have a problem with the numbers in the OP. It did say "effective 90 strength." That could well be ST 70, Striking ST +20. Triple-size T-Rex!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Considering changing the rule about the effective weight of unarmed attacks being ST/10 to it being equivalent to BL/20.

This makes the rule play nicer with scaling and eliminates the sillier results of the RAW rule.
I support this house rule. IMHO, it's the best of the half-dozen or so alternatives I've heard (or come up with).
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Old 06-26-2010, 08:24 AM   #20
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Default Re: Monstrous bite as area attack

with the way ST works now, +100% "strength" is +40% ST, +50% becomes +20%.
An SM+5 beasty with ST60 and Striking ST+12 and Born Biter +3 for effective bite size SM+8, 2ft bite, and counting the huge bites as a pounce, 72lbs for parrying... That'd sort the "problem" for sure.

Unfortunately I cannot remember or find the ruling that the Dodge+Retreat bonus is negated v's Area Effect. Was it a House Rule?
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