[Social Engineering] Status and Military Rank in Medieval Feudalism

[phayman53]

Medieval armies, especially in the High Middle Ages and Late Middle Ages, had a significant number of semi-professional soldiers. They had men-at-arms, archers, sergeants, etc.--all non-nobles. It seems that these people would have some kind of military rank. Likewise, some knights must have had authority over others and higher nobles seem to have had command positions over other nobles of the same status. How would you model military rank and how it interacts with status in GURPS, especially using the "Variant Rank Costs" and "Behind the Curtain: Status as Rank" on pages 14-15 in Social Engineering?

One thought is just to count all rank as temporary and therefore not worth any points. The exception would be rank in a mercenary company, which would be worth 2 points per level since it lacks dominance and legitimacy.

My second thought is that military rank exists but is worth 4 points per level because it lacks dominance because status. In this case, a noble who is also in charge of military subordinates would have to have both Rank at 4 points/level and status at 5 points/level. Such rank would also give status according to the values in Social Engineering at the bottom of page 14. This means that Feudal Military Rank 3 (12 points) would give +1 to Status, it would take Feudal Military Rank 7 to impute Status +2.

What do you all think of the second one? This would mean that every noble with Status would get respect from military but they would not be able to give military orders to even a commoner who had Feudal Military Rank. For that he would also need Feudal Military Rank in excess of the commoner.

[jason taylor]

One of the chief natures of Military Rank is that it is always deputized. Now a feudal ruler is deputized in the sense of not being sovereign nor having allodial tenure. But military rank allows someone plenipotentiery powers over his master's men at arms. Clearly this will exist in a feudal system. Any given baron can tell anyone in his command, "you're in charge of this pack of armsmen I am giving you, go catch those thieves and hang them". Formalizing this makes it Military rank.

[Phantasm]

Feudal Rank is one of those that seems to be 10/level instead of 5/level because it includes and replaces Status above 0.

To answer the OP's question about modern military Ranks, http://dagwood.sandwich.net/marvel/a...us_tables.html gives my takes on the modern rank structures; while I'm constantly revising the first table (Administrative/Political), the Merchant, Military, and Police Ranks have gone mostly unchanged for a while. (The third table on that page is Army/Marine Corps/Air Force, the fourth is Navy.) (This doesn't account for the various other agency Rank types (FBI, CIA, FSB, SHIELD, etc.) which use the system from Social Engineering: Pulling Rank.)

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

Feudal Rank is one of those that seems to be 10/level instead of 5/level because it includes and replaces Status above 0.

I don't think that's the case, actually. Social Engineering doesn't suggest that, for one thing - all the examples of Feudal Rank in it treat Status as separate. More importantly, it doesn't really fit the mould of unified Rank and Status. For that to apply, there has to be really only one way, one legitimate organization, that grants Status in the society, and that doesn't really work for a typical feudal society. In Medieval Europe, for example, you could certainly use Religious Rank to gain Status just as easily as Feudal Rank. And there were more limited forms of Rank that nonetheless granted some Status: Guild Rank, for example, or even Military Rank - as I mentioned above, Military Rank would have been capped, perhaps, but if you got a couple levels, you'd still get the Status boost.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

Feudal Rank is one of those that seems to be 10/level instead of 5/level because it includes and replaces Status above 0.

When i wrote it up for GURPS Social Engineering, I had it work slightly differently. You still purchased the diffuse attribute of Status, but you also purchased Feudal Rank equal to Status, if you were a noble who had actual power.

So, for example, Henry VIII had Status 7, Feudal Rank 7, and some level of Wealth---let's say Multimillionaire 1 after he expropriated the monasteries. His wealth would have cost 75 points; his Rank 35; but his Status would have been discounted 5 points for Wealth and 10 for Rank, meaning it cost 20 points.

[ericthered]

A few notes on paying for what you get, and getting what you pay for.

If he doesn't have men under him, he doesn't have rank. These don't have to be permanent underlings. Some might just be in charge of taking care of his horse or two, handing him lances, and polishing his armor... but that's barely rank 1. If he can give orders to otherwise unled squads on the field, that could count.

If he merely can't be ordered around by the 20-man level of foot soldier captains, that's courtesy rank, not actual rank. I suspect your basic knight will have rank 1 for his actual staff that keeps him in fighting shape, and courtesy rank for the rest of it. (I would stat a pilot the same way).

The legal privileges of a knight vs. a commoner are significant, but I'd put that at the [5] level, not the [10]. I'm not sure how much of this is actually status and it looks like legal powers to us because of our current societies hostility to legally established status. Remember that pretty much every significant foe the knight faces is likely to either have the same level of power or be an outlaw who doesn't care. When he is up against common folk, remember to leverage your status. If it comes down to he-said-she-said, you have a major advantage. That's hard for us modern folk to grasp and use properly, but its there, and its part of what makes a dashing knight able to focus on combat solutions in old tales rather than legal ones.

[Polydamas]

Another good thing to remember is that in late medieval and renaissance Europe, military offices could be as short as a ten-month contract. Characters only have an advantage on their character sheet if it will last the length of the campaign or until something drastic happens. If you get conscripted during the Belgravian invasion and talk the captain into making you vinetar (captain-of-20) because you are a pillar of the community (Status 1, good Reputation) and have been at war before (in-game events), you don't buy Military Rank for character points because in a few months the Belgravians will be gone and you will be back to your regular life. On the other hand, if after the Belgravian invasion you flee to Miklgarth and enlist in Avtokrator's bodyguard, you might have Military Rank.

[phayman53]

Originally Posted by whswhs

When i wrote it up for GURPS Social Engineering, I had it work slightly differently. You still purchased the diffuse attribute of Status, but you also purchased Feudal Rank equal to Status, if you were a noble who had actual power.

So, for example, Henry VIII had Status 7, Feudal Rank 7, and some level of Wealth---let's say Multimillionaire 1 after he expropriated the monasteries. His wealth would have cost 75 points; his Rank 35; but his Status would have been discounted 5 points for Wealth and 10 for Rank, meaning it cost 20 points.

Would you be willing to clarify specifically what the differences are between Feudal Rank and Status? My impression is that, in a Feudal society for most of the Middle Ages, feudal rank did not give you the ability to order around lower rank people unless they were specifically your vassal. Even then, you had somewhat limited control over your vassals based on agreed terms of service, etc. It certainly wasn't like a military hierarchy where any Count could give any knight an order and expect to be obeyed. Rather, most things seemed to work based on social influence.

On the other hand, I can see that there were other ways to status besides being a Feudal Lord, especially through the clergy. Female nobles also had status equal to their husbands but not usually formal authority outside of their manor. So I think I understand why you have a separate Feudal Rank (and assume that clergy should have Religious Rank--female nobles, on the other hand, probably need to work through status alone).

I guess what I am wondering is what specifically Feudal Rank gets you in addition to Status in the historical Middle Ages? Also, is it worth a full 5 points/level, or should it be worth less? This seems a bit pricey to me, especially when considering the assistance mechanic in Pulling Rank, I don't feel like Feudal Lords had access to the same kind of organizational support that a modern military officer, or even law enforcement officer, would. It depended much more on personal relationships, which were influenced by rank but not guaranteed by them.

[Olinto]

I am also interested on a final statement about how Feudal Rank interacts with privilege advantages. A High ranking noble should also buy legal immunity, legal enforcement powers and claim to hospitality or it is all included in the Rank?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by phayman53

I guess what I am wondering is what specifically Feudal Rank gets you in addition to Status in the historical Middle Ages? Also, is it worth a full 5 points/level, or should it be worth less? This seems a bit pricey to me, especially when considering the assistance mechanic in Pulling Rank, I don't feel like Feudal Lords had access to the same kind of organizational support that a modern military officer, or even law enforcement officer, would. It depended much more on personal relationships, which were influenced by rank but not guaranteed by them.

The example given in Social Engineering for Status + Feudal Rank is Henry VIII, who is arguably Renaissance rather than medieval.

The way I would break things down is roughly this. Status basically means that you are recognized throughout a society as entitled to respect, deference, and/or cooperation. Feudal Rank means that there's an actual chain of command (at least from lord to vassal to subvassal), that you have access to resources, and that you are regarded as "legitimate" in some way. If you don't have all of those, then you don't have full on Feudal Rank and could plausibly pay fewer points for it; you might have nothing but a title (a form of Courtesy Rank).

Or, if you want a simpler system (the varying rank costs are an optional system for people who want complexity), you can just say that Status either carries a share in the powers of the state (and Feudal Rank) or just gets you informal respect and deference (no Rank).

Either way, it's a GM judgment call. The rules are there to give you a vocabulary in which to express that judgment.