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Old 07-20-2011, 05:45 PM   #11
DanHoward
 
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Default Re: [LT] Interesting study on the effects of wearing heavy armor

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Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
It seems that they did, if you look at the abstract:
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.o...rspb.2011.0816

"However, the energetic cost of locomotion in armour was also much higher than equivalent trunk loading. "
The trunk wasn't loaded with armour though. They tested someone wearing a harness and someone carrying a backpack of the same weight. They needed a control to account for the breathing restrictions that wearing armour on the torso might give. It also doesn't tell us much about Agincourt since the armour worn in that test was at least half a century later and it doesn't tell us much about the outcome of a battle since anyone wearing this armour would have several horses to get them to the battle. It definitely helps explain why infantry ditched leg armour before anything else (half plate).
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Old 07-20-2011, 06:02 PM   #12
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
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Default Re: [LT] Interesting study on the effects of wearing heavy armor

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
The trunk wasn't loaded with armour though. They tested someone wearing a harness and someone carrying a backpack of the same weight. They needed a control to account for the breathing restrictions that wearing armour on the torso might give. It also doesn't tell us much about Agincourt since the armour worn in that test was at least half a century later and it doesn't tell us much about the outcome of a battle since anyone wearing this armour would have several horses to get them to the battle. It definitely helps explain why infantry ditched leg armour before anything else (half plate).
Well, even so, it's something...

Anecdotally I've done some running wearing a mail hauberk and in full battle rattle with a backpack on, it gets pretty exhausting. Running with armor on while wearing combat boots is also noticeably harder than while wearing running shoes.

When we make sugggestions for PTing in armor we tend to recommend that people only run with the armor over PT gear and that they don't run armor while wearing combat boots if running alone because individual perception of exhaustion while wearing armor is often deceptively low and people often overdo it unknowingly.

All anecdotal of course.
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Old 07-20-2011, 06:33 PM   #13
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Default Re: [LT] Interesting study on the effects of wearing heavy armor

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Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha View Post
Mind you, putting on an extra couple of pounds of sabatons/sollerets on your feet is a drag, especially on top of the couple of pounds in shoes/boots underneath.
Athletic shoes are measured in ounces, not lbs, no one can run at their full speed with a couple of pounds on their feet.


A few years ago, before Low Tech came out, we had a great thread which went into footwear discussion for a bit:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=42907
Sorry, my point was that foot soldiers don't wear heavy leg armor. It's possible that I'm wrong, but every example of infantry armor that I'm aware of, from Roman Legionaries to Landsknecht, have avoided heavy armor for the legs.

An example of what I'm talking about.
http://i52.tinypic.com/5wxgu0.jpg

EDIT: Dan Howard got to it before I did, but it's an important point. The concept of a soldier marching into battle wearing plate from head to toe isn't historically accurate. We're either talking about mounted knights wearing full plate or foot soldiers wearing partial plate, but it's not really fair to talk about someone wearing 50kg of armor walking around to fight.

Last edited by Novembermike; 07-20-2011 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:00 PM   #14
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Default Re: [LT] Interesting study on the effects of wearing heavy armor

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Originally Posted by Novembermike View Post
Sorry, my point was that foot soldiers don't wear heavy leg armor. It's possible that I'm wrong, but every example of infantry armor that I'm aware of, from Roman Legionaries to Landsknecht, have avoided heavy armor for the legs.

An example of what I'm talking about.
http://i52.tinypic.com/5wxgu0.jpg
So, anyone want to have a go at writing up that armor?
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:09 PM   #15
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Default Re: [LT] Interesting study on the effects of wearing heavy armor

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Originally Posted by Novembermike View Post
An example of what I'm talking about.
http://i52.tinypic.com/5wxgu0.jpg
I'm not sure the coverage of that armor indicates anything other than what armor was convenient to mount on that armor stand.
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:44 PM   #16
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Default Re: [LT] Interesting study on the effects of wearing heavy armor

Mike Loads had one of his trainees fight in plate to see how long he would last.

Here is the Video. Nice shows Weapons that Made Britain.
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:55 PM   #17
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Default Re: [LT] Interesting study on the effects of wearing heavy armor

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So, anyone want to have a go at writing up that armor?
TL4 Plate Torso(looks like it has a blackplate, but if not, it's a breastplate), I'd be happy with

Cuirass(chest, back and front, not groin, medium plate, DR6): 15lbs, $1875
Cuisses(Abdomen and thighs, Segmented medium plate plate DR4): 16.8lbs, $630
Spaulders(Shoulders, Segmented Medium plate, DR4): 2.4lbs, $90

Entire suit weight, cost: 34.2lbs, $2,595. Worn over an Arming Garment, that likely has mail voicders in the groin, knees and elbows. Protects the Chest(9-10 hit location) with DR6 front and back, the arm with DR4 with a 1-6 chance, the legs and groin with DR4, on a 5 or 6 for the legs.

If the suit were hardened, one could make the segmented plate from Hardened Steel, and have DR4, but save 5.3 lbs for the cuisses.

The helmet could be hardened, and fluted, with a brim to protect the face, but is otherwise a bascinet.
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Old 07-21-2011, 09:16 PM   #18
Novembermike
 
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Default Re: [LT] Interesting study on the effects of wearing heavy armor

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I'm not sure the coverage of that armor indicates anything other than what armor was convenient to mount on that armor stand.
This isn't really a controversial thing. IIRC there are hundreds of surviving examples, many of which still have documentation saying who owned it, who built it, exactly what pieces were included in the purchase etc and illustrations showing someone wearing it.

Here's an example from a wood block:
http://i52.tinypic.com/24w9g04.jpg
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Old 08-06-2011, 08:00 PM   #19
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
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Default Re: [LT] Interesting study on the effects of wearing heavy armor

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Originally Posted by Novembermike View Post
Sorry, my point was that foot soldiers don't wear heavy leg armor. It's possible that I'm wrong, but every example of infantry armor that I'm aware of, from Roman Legionaries to Landsknecht, have avoided heavy armor for the legs.
They still wear boots though, and even boots slow you down in comparison to running shoes.

Just as an example of a data point, I weighed 5 pairs of my shoes on a kitchen scale which was way more accurate than it needed to be, and rounding to the nearest ounce I get the following:

Slippers (Reef) 1 lbs 2 oz
Running Shoes (Nike Free) 1 lbs 3 oz
Shoes (corfram) 2 lbs
Shoes (leather) 3 lbs
Boots (Steel Toed) 5 lbs
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Old 08-06-2011, 08:04 PM   #20
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Default Re: [LT] Interesting study on the effects of wearing heavy armor

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They still wear boots though, and even boots slow you down in comparison to running shoes.
They don't slow you down as much as a twisted ankle. Hikers wear boots too. Also, if you don't know that you're going through dry terrain, wet shoes are bad, so you want at least proof against puddles and other incidental wetness, though you don't necessarily need galoshes.
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