Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-01-2013, 08:51 PM   #71
TheOneRonin
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Default Re: CIA Special Activities Division PMO Skill Set

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Here's an example with situational modifiers that would fit into a PMO campaign: shooting someone whom you have to take down, because if he gets to start giving orders, things get a lot harder. He's in a house 100 yards away, visible through the window his desk looks out of; your team is concealed, but will get spotted when you start firing.

Totally na´ve calculation: I need to hit the skull (-7) at 100 yards (-10), I'm at -1 for firing through glass and I need to do this on 16 or less. I need Guns (Rifle) + Acc of 34, rifles are Acc 5, so I need skill 29. That is not a skill level that real humans have.

Really optimised calculation: I need to hit the Vitals (-3) at 100 yards (-10) with -1 for the glass, and I'll accept doing it on a 14-. I have a Fine rifle (Acc 6), hand-made super-match ammo (+2), I'm braced (+1), I have a telescopic sight for +4, and two seconds of extra Aim (+2). All-Out Attack (Determined) gives another +1. I need Guns (Rifle) of 12, and while that's better than a DX10 rifleman fresh from basic training, nobody could call a professional sniper with skill 12 implausibly good: indeed, it's implausibly low for someone with all this equipment. Getting the exact range and wind could help some more but may risk alerting the target, who thinks there's only him and his henchbeings within ten miles. There's a rule somewhere about not being able to more than double Acc with equipment bonuses, but I can't find it right now.

The situation when this came up in a somewhat cinematic game a few weeks ago: I want to hit the Vitals (-3) at 100 yards (-10) with -1 for the glass and I have skill 16 (defaulted from Pistol-18) as a generalist commando. I have a Fine rifle (Acc 6), Match ammo (+1), I'm braced (+1), I didn't bring a telescopic sight because this is the first time in the whole campaign that I'd have used it, but I have a collimating sight for +1, and two seconds extra aim for +2. My effective skill is 14-, which will have to do.
For what it's worth, anyone who has passed any of the US Military Sniper Courses should be able to make that shot in his sleep. Heck, I'm no where near a "trained sniper", and I was able to get 100% torso hits at 100 yards with an M16A3 and iron sights, firing from the prone supported position back when I was in the Army. If I had a DMR with a decent optic, head shots at that range would have been 100% doable.

But I do understand your point. I suppose I expect the kind of sniper you get from a Tier 1 unit to be able to do the following:

100 meters, relatively stationary, human target
-5.56mm Carbine w/holosight
-AoA, 1 turn spent Aiming
-Hit Probability: Torso (99%), Head (50%)

Change that to a decent (Acc5) battle rifle with a 10x scope and that sniper should pretty much have a 100% chance to succeed.

Push that target out to 800m+, in bad weather, at night but with a NV optic, and then it becomes challenging.

Or maybe it's only a 30 yard shot, at night, while you are on the deck of a moving ship, and it's a head shot on a somali terrorist, through a tiny glass window of a life boat that is also pitching and moving. Oh, and your two best buddies have to pull off the same shot at the same time.

My guess is that if you put those guys in that same exact situation 100 times, they MIGHT miss 10% of those shots.

And for what it's worth, I don't think that every shot becomes trivial once you hit that level of skill. Especially if you have to fire on the move, or if you don't have the luxury of being able to take AIM maneuvers without getting shot yourself.
TheOneRonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2013, 09:05 PM   #72
TheOneRonin
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Default Re: CIA Special Activities Division PMO Skill Set

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraydak View Post
For anything OTHER than military templates, GURPS forum readers object wildly to more than 12 cp/year for intensive training (full time education). Even for non-stat-normalization followers will look askance at that number, and it doesn't apply once you start doing anything other than full-time studying. Every time you write down a cp number, think "1 month dedicated, fairly intensive training". A 3-week course, might, maybe, qualify for 1cp in something. Following your templates, other high-education characters will have *absurd* skill levels (and that is speaking as an extreme NON-stat-normalizer).
Keep in mind that you aren't looking at a template for some 22 year old who has just been training for a few years. You are looking at a guy who has had MONTHS of training and YEARS (10+) of practical application. He is going to use every one of those skills on every single deployment. I don't think 2cp in Driving (Auto) simply equates to an 8-week tactical driving course. It might be a 3 week course, coupled with hundreds of hours of actually performing tactical driving under combat conditions. Under that consideration, the 2cps start to sound a lot more reasonable.

Quote:
Your current core template gives 9 cp in melee combat. Basically, a full year (with followup maintenance time) in training in mostly obsolete skills. Overkill.
Again, same as above. These guys will get plenty of hand-to-hand training AND experience using said skills over their 10+ years in special operations. Plus they get more EXTENSIVE hand-to-hand combat training as part of the 18 month CST program. I think 4 points in Karate and Judo is perfectly reasonable, especially since a lot of these guys probably train and practice outside of "work" as well.

Quote:
You also overestimate the skill levels required to function for most tasks. For example, Navigation [2] gives a level of 13. Which doesn't sound that high until you add the +1 for a good topo map and +3 for GPS (or +1 for the backup compass), and then the usual +4 TDM. A base skill level of 13 is massive overkill, and I doubt 2 months of dedicated training in Navigation (land), much less Navigation (sea). The dabbler perk is what is called for here.
And you completely underestimate the requirements for having to do things like Land Nav in austere environments when you don't always have a GPS, compass, or even a detailed map. The point is that these people are trained to be able to perform under the WORST type of conditions. If the only time you can effectively use your skill is under IDEAL conditions, then you WILL FAIL when you are in the field.

Quote:
Survival is another questionable skill. There is no reason to train modern military personnel to live off the land indefinitely.
I agree 100%. I would never include such a skill in a template for conventional modern military personnel. But we aren't talking about those people. We are talking about people who MUST be able to survive long periods of time in austere environments with NO SUPPORT whatsoever. So yeah, survival makes sense here.
TheOneRonin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2013, 09:17 PM   #73
jason taylor
 
jason taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Default Re: CIA Special Activities Division PMO Skill Set

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
For what it's worth, anyone who has passed any of the US Military Sniper Courses should be able to make that shot in his sleep. Heck, I'm no where near a "trained sniper", and I was able to get 100% torso hits at 100 yards with an M16A3 and iron sights, firing from the prone supported position back when I was in the Army. If I had a DMR with a decent optic, head shots at that range would have been 100% doable.

But I do understand your point. I suppose I expect the kind of sniper you get from a Tier 1 unit to be able to do the following:

100 meters, relatively stationary, human target
-5.56mm Carbine w/holosight
-AoA, 1 turn spent Aiming
-Hit Probability: Torso (99%), Head (50%)

Change that to a decent (Acc5) battle rifle with a 10x scope and that sniper should pretty much have a 100% chance to succeed.

Push that target out to 800m+, in bad weather, at night but with a NV optic, and then it becomes challenging.

Or maybe it's only a 30 yard shot, at night, while you are on the deck of a moving ship, and it's a head shot on a somali terrorist, through a tiny glass window of a life boat that is also pitching and moving. Oh, and your two best buddies have to pull off the same shot at the same time.

My guess is that if you put those guys in that same exact situation 100 times, they MIGHT miss 10% of those shots.

And for what it's worth, I don't think that every shot becomes trivial once you hit that level of skill. Especially if you have to fire on the move, or if you don't have the luxury of being able to take AIM maneuvers without getting shot yourself.
A lot of the sniper course is psych eval not just marksmanship. You have fill the paradoxical goal of finding someone cold-blooded enough to kill a man while he is at a latrine while rejecting those who look like they might start to like it as to unstable. Several people are skilled enough to be a sniper without being snipers.
__________________
"The navy could probably win a war without coffee but would prefer not to try"-Samuel Eliot Morrison
jason taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2013, 09:37 PM   #74
safisher
Gunnery Sergeant,
 Imperial Marines
Coauthor,
 GURPS High-Tech
 
safisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Default Re: CIA Special Activities Division PMO Skill Set

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
I suppose I expect the kind of sniper you get from a Tier 1 unit to be able to do the following
Tactical Shooting says skill 15-18, possibly more for very talented legendary PCs. With a few Perks and Techniques, the specifics of the shooters aptitude become more apparent. There are lots of choices to be made under the Sharpshooter style in TS. Is he "just" a shooter, maxed out in Guns, Precision Aiming, and Targeted Attack (and Deadeye), a specialist in one rifle (Weapon Bond) or someone with broader background (Cross-Training, Green Eyes, Masked Shooting) or does he have a load of fieldcraft skills too (maxed out on Stealth, Survival, Tracking, Intelligence Analysis, and Cartography). Those selections make the character different, and shouldn't be overlooked. Beyond all of this, he could just have Luck (using it judiciously), or he can be in a campaign where if he saves an extra five points he can always buy a Critical Success and make the "impossible" shot. Lots of metagame decisions going on here.
__________________
Buy my stuff on E23.
My GURPS blog, Dark Journeys, is here.
Fav Blogs: Doug Cole here , C.R. Rice's here, & Hans Christian Vortisch here.
safisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2013, 09:39 PM   #75
jason taylor
 
jason taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Default Re: CIA Special Activities Division PMO Skill Set

Quote:
Originally Posted by safisher View Post
Tactical Shooting says skill 15-18, possibly more for very talented legendary PCs. With a few Perks and Techniques, the specifics of the shooters aptitude become more apparent. There are lots of choices to be made under the Sharpshooter style in TS. Is he "just" a shooter, maxed out in Guns, Precision Aiming, and Targeted Attack (and Deadeye), a specialist in one rifle (Weapon Bond) or someone with broader background (Cross-Training, Green Eyes, Masked Shooting) or does he have a load of fieldcraft skills too (maxed out on Stealth, Survival, Tracking, Intelligence Analysis, and Cartography). Those selections make the character different, and shouldn't be overlooked. Beyond all of this, he could just have Luck (using it judiciously), or he can be in a campaign where if he saves an extra five points he can always buy a Critical Success and make the "impossible" shot. Lots of metagame decisions going on here.
How about Unfazeable?
__________________
"The navy could probably win a war without coffee but would prefer not to try"-Samuel Eliot Morrison
jason taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2013, 09:48 PM   #76
safisher
Gunnery Sergeant,
 Imperial Marines
Coauthor,
 GURPS High-Tech
 
safisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Default Re: CIA Special Activities Division PMO Skill Set

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
We are talking about people who MUST be able to survive long periods of time in austere environments with NO SUPPORT whatsoever. So yeah, survival makes sense here.
Survival is best thought of as "camping" or "living" in an environment. It's the "I know this place" skill that many people (hunters, fishermen, etc.) have. The most minimal equipment gives you a healthy bonus. Start a fire, make a shelter, cook food that's not from a can or package, how to stay dry and warm, find or make clean water, etc. These are all "survival skills." Infantry troops pick this up in the field, or suffer. Woodcraft or fieldcraft is a part of modern military skills -- jungle school, mountaineering, or Ranger school. They all teach these things. Aviators get SERE school for just these reasons. Again, a very common knowledge set.
__________________
Buy my stuff on E23.
My GURPS blog, Dark Journeys, is here.
Fav Blogs: Doug Cole here , C.R. Rice's here, & Hans Christian Vortisch here.
safisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2020, 11:27 PM   #77
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default CIA Special Acticities Division (SAD) Paramilitary Officers (PMO)

I have a few questions about the kind of specifics that I require for making character backgrounds.

First of all, I've seen a reference to an age limit of 35 years when first applying as an officer of the Clandestine Service, theoretically subject to waivers (but in other federal service, such waivers tend to be vanishingly rare). I can't confirm this and it might be bad information.

Does anyone know if veterans of military Special Mission Units need to retire well before they would be eligible for their pension to have a chance at being accepted as a PMO into CIA SAD?

Is there a mechanism by which total accumulated time in federal service can be added together to calculate pension rights for military veterans who join the CIA, as there is for some federal law enforcement agencies?

Ordinary federal employees can serve as members of the Reserve Component of any branch of the US Armed Forces or as National Guardsmen simultaneously with their civilian federal employment. In general, many federal agencies strive to accomodate drill and deployment schedules for personnel who have part-time military commitments. Does anyone know if that would work for a PMO of the CIA SAD?

If not for a direct CIA employee ('Blue Badger'), would it work for a contract employee with essentially the same duties ('Green Badger')?

How about the college degree requirement? Is that likely to be waived for enlisted or Warrant Officer 20-year veterans of Special Forces and/or Delta/CAG?

What about contract employees? Would they need a college degree if their duties were essentially identical to their 'Blue Badger' PMO peers?
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2020, 04:30 PM   #78
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Former PMO Character as a Monster Hunter

As eagle-eyed forumites might have noted, I'm proposing that one of J.R. Kessler's 'Night Riders' (vigilante Monster Hunters working for the PCs' Patron) in my Caribbean by Night campaign was a contract Paramilitary Officer for CIA Special Activities Division before coming to work for Kessler.

More precisely, Jaime Barzaga Arias (b. October 18, 1970; Hialeah, Florida), the current team lead of the Florida team, should have been an enlisted Ranger, CAG/Delta and Special Forces operator, before becoming a Warrant Officer in the 7th SFG and finally a contract employee of the CIA SAD. Yes, obviously, that's an incredibly rare background, but the man leads Monster Hunters.

A billionaire with supernatural sources of information has spent the last three decades finding and recruiting the few humans who are both trustworthy and have what it takes to fight supernatural threats; which start at 'psychic influences which might make ordinary humans panic, give into Disadvantages or fall into depression' and exists in flavors all the way up to 'without generational Will and strong motivation, no mortal could even find the courage to act, and even if they do, this threat is scarier than hand-to-hand with a tiger, an axe murderer and an MMA champion on PCP at the same time'.

In any case, I'm trying to establish where Barzaga was at each point in his career, at what date he came to the notice of someone in Kessler's orbit and when he would have retired from federal service to fight a Greater Threat.

So, stuff like when he needed to seperate from active duty to be eligable for CIA SAD, whether he might have remained a part of the Special Forces community through National Guard service in the 20th SFG while paid by the CIA as a contract employee and that sort of thing.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!

Last edited by Icelander; 02-27-2020 at 04:36 PM.
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
federal agencies, special ops

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.