CIA Special Activities Division PMO Skill Set

[robkelk]

Slight digression: Could people define their acronyms, please? I don't have the books with me, and when I hear "PMO" I think "Prime Minister's Office". The other abbreviations, save for CIA, are opaque to me.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

Diplomacy [4]

That much? That's getting to "professional diplomat" levels of training.

Driving (Auto) [4]

Really that much?

Escape [2]

Actual training in escaping from bonds, handcuffs, etc.?

First Aid [1]

A bit more of this, possibly?

Gunner: Grenade Launcher [1]
Gunner: LAW [1]

Usually Guns, not Gunner.

Guns (LMGs) [1]
Guns (Pistols) [1]
Guns (Rifles) [12]
Guns (Shotgun) [1]
Guns (SMGs) [1]

All of the non-Rifle skills have defaults from Rifle [12] that will be better than you get for 1 point.

Smallsword [4]

What's this intended to be used with?

Tactics [8]

That's quite high. Some may well have it, but all of them?

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by robkelk

Slight digression: Could people define their acronyms, please? I don't have the books with me, and when I hear "PMO" I think "Prime Minister's Office". The other abbreviations, save for CIA, are opaque to me.

My apologies. I'm a bit of an acronym geek due to my time in the military. It's easy to forget that not everyone knows what all of these mean.

SAD = Special Activities Division. An arm of the CIA's National Clandestine Services.

SAD SOG = SAD Special Operations Group. The paramilitary branch of SAD.

PMO = Paramilitary Officer. These are the guys who serve in SAD SOG

CST = CIA's Clandestine Services Trainee program. Basically, this is "spy school". Both CIA's regular field agents, and SOG PMOs attend this school.

CAG/ACE = Combat Applications Group/Army Compartmented Elements. Basically the recent designations of 1st Special Operations Detachment Delta or Delta Force

DEVGRU = Navy Special Warfare Development Group, aka SEAL Team 6

ISA = US Army Intelligence Support Activity. Too hard to explain here. Check out their [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_Support_Activity"]Wiki/URL] page.

24th STS = US Air Force Special Tactics Squadron. This is the Air Force's Tier 1 unit that serves under JSOC. Mostly composed of Combat Controllers, Pararescumen, and Combat Weathermen (don't laugh, they do exist).

ODA = Operational Detachment Alpha. US Special Forces 12-man A-Team.

I think that covers all the acronyms I've used in my posts. Let me know if I've missed anything.

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

Diplomacy 4

Originally Posted by johndallman

That much? That's getting to "professional diplomat" levels of training.

It might be, but seeing as how all members of an SF ODA have got to be cultural specialists, and be able to work with, collaborate with, train, and lead foreign indigenous forces, I would think that Diplomacy is going to be one of their primary skills. Again the real world equivalent may be better represented with other skills, so I'd be willing to concede 2 points or so on this.

[Driving 4]
Really that much?

Again, that may be a bit high, but they are all trained not only in operating many different types of vehicles, but also in tactical driving. Again, I could concede this as being 2 points instead of 4.

[Escape 2]
Actual training in escaping from bonds, handcuffs, etc.?

This comes from SERE school, which all Special Forces personnel must attend. Incidentally, the GURPS Special Ops (3rd Edition) book gives this skill at 2 points for all SF, Delta, and SEAL personnel. And I'm pretty sure that 2 points in 3rd Ed is roughly equivalent to 4 points in 4th Ed.

[First Aid 1]
A bit more of this, possibly?

Maybe. When I attended Combat Lifesaver school, there were a couple of SF guys in the class. We all got the same training, and I'm not sure it would equate to 2 full points. The class was only 40 hours. Now, the SF Medical Sergents would would First Aid at 8 points at least, but the rest of the team will just have basic combat lifesaving skills.

[Gunner GL and LAW]
Usually Guns, not Gunner.

Right. This was a notational error on my part. GLs and LAWs do come under GUNS, not GUNNER.

However, Gunner (Machine Guns) should 100% be part of their repertoire. All members of an ODA will be trained at least to a basic level on crew-served weapons. The Weapons Sgts will get THAT MUCH MORE training on the same systems.

All of the non-Rifle skills have defaults from Rifle [12] that will be better than you get for 1 point.

The 1 point is to remove any unfamiliarity penalties with those weapons. This guy is clearly built to default to all of those weapons from Guns (Rifle).

[Smallsword 4]
What's this intended to be used with?

Escrima. Most of the 1st Group SF guys get their close combat training in Escrima, so I put that there to represent it, along with the Judo and Karate skills. Weapons Sergeants get more combat related training than the other team members, so this makes sense. But it wouldn't likely be present in the skill lists for SF 18Bs from other SF Groups. It certainly wouldn't kill me to remove it from the template.

[Tactics 8]
That's quite high. Some may well have it, but all of them?

Individually, every member of a Special Forces ODA has got to be able to train and lead foreign indigenous forces in Unconventional Warfare. Yes, each member of an ODA MUST be capable of doing this. I could maybe live with this at 4 points, but I still don't think that accurately represents their tactical acumen.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

And I'm pretty sure that 2 points in 3rd Ed is roughly equivalent to 4 points in 4th Ed.

Ah, no. The translation does not work that way: the relative costs of many things changed at 4e, largely because some things in 3e were too good a deal.

To translate the 3e Special Ops templates, buy the same attributes and skill levels. Many of the skill purchases will have the same costs, but the overall character will (almost always) end up costing more. That's OK; the "baseline" low-end heroic character budget was 100 points in 3e and is 150 in 4e. But don't assume you need to spend 1.5 times as much in 4e on each item; some things will cost fewer points than in 3e (notably, high levels in DX-based skills).

This comes from SERE school, which all Special Forces personnel must attend. Incidentally, the GURPS Special Ops (3rd Edition) book gives this skill at 2 points for all SF, Delta, and SEAL personnel.

OK, but I don't see anything in that description that looks like the GURPS skill "Escape." That skill is extremely specific, about the physical tricks of getting out of bonds, handcuffs, and the like. The military activity of escaping is presumably about getting away from guards, hiding, and avoiding recapture? That would be Tactics, Stealth, and maybe the Survival skill for the environment.

The GURPS terminology is not based on US military terminology, or any other standard vocabulary. This causes confusion regularly, but changing it would cause just as much.

However, Gunner (Machine Guns) should 100% be part of their repertoire.

You can save points anyway. GURPS reckons Gunner (Machine Gun) is a tripod-or vehicle-mounted machine gun, and Guns (Light Machine Gun) is bipod-mounted or hand-held. Those skills ought to have defaults between them. That's missing from the Basic Set, but Tactical Shooting, which is full of stuff that will be useful for your campaign, gives a both-ways default of -2. It does mean you need an actual point in Guns (LMG) so that your default of Rifle-2 is a skill you actually know, and you can then default Gunner (MG) off it at Rifle-4. Obviously, the Weapon Sgts will have several points in Gunner.

The 1 point is to remove any unfamiliarity penalties with those weapons. This guy is clearly built to default to all of those weapons from Guns (Rifle).

There are ways to avoid spending points on that. You absolutely can be familiar with weapons you're using on a defaulted skill, and as GM you can just designate a list that characters will have familiarised with and take the points off the sheet. If you want to spend points on it, the cleaner way is to use the Cross-Trained perk, which is in Tactical Shooting. But remember to keep the point in Guns (LMG) for defaulting Gunner off.

Escrima... It certainly wouldn't kill me to remove it from the template.

Sounds like it belongs in the lens for weapons specialists.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Ah, no. The translation does not work that way: the relative costs of many things changed at 4e, largely because some things in 3e were too good a deal.

To translate the 3e Special Ops templates, buy the same attributes and skill levels. Many of the skill purchases will have the same costs, but the overall character will (almost always) end up costing more. That's OK; the "baseline" low-end heroic character budget was 100 points in 3e and is 150 in 4e. But don't assume you need to spend 1.5 times as much in 4e on each item; some things will cost fewer points than in 3e (notably, high levels in DX-based skills).

That is correct. It's just about never a good idea to apply the nominal 3:2 conversion rate for Fourth Edition:Third Edition to individual purchases. For skills in particular, it's just about never necessary to adjust points unless the investment was quite large.

[Anders]

Surely it would be better to match skill levels, rather than points spent? The distribution curve of 3d6 can't have changed that much from 3e to 4e?

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Ah, no. The translation does not work that way: the relative costs of many things changed at 4e, largely because some things in 3e were too good a deal.

To translate the 3e Special Ops templates, buy the same attributes and skill levels. Many of the skill purchases will have the same costs, but the overall character will (almost always) end up costing more. That's OK; the "baseline" low-end heroic character budget was 100 points in 3e and is 150 in 4e. But don't assume you need to spend 1.5 times as much in 4e on each item; some things will cost fewer points than in 3e (notably, high levels in DX-based skills).

I gotcha. I never played 3rd Ed, so was making a best guess, especially since the skill growth in 3rd seems to be 1/2, 1, 2, 4, 6 to 4th Ed's 1, 2, 4, 8, 12.

One more correction. GURPS Special Ops actually lists the ESCAPE skill at one point instead of two:

Originally Posted by GURPS Special Ops page 67

Escape (P/H) DX-2[1]-12;

So the template has DX at 14, which means it would cost 1 point under 4th Ed to get Escape at DX -2, or Rating 12.

OK, but I don't see anything in that description that looks like the GURPS skill "Escape." That skill is extremely specific, about the physical tricks of getting out of bonds, handcuffs, and the like. The military activity of escaping is presumably about getting away from guards, hiding, and avoiding recapture? That would be Tactics, Stealth, and maybe the Survival skill for the environment.

I wouldn't have necessarily added it to my template if the GURPS writers hadn't already added it to the SF Template (and also to the Combat Controller, Delta Force, Marine Recon, and SEAL templates as well).

The GURPS terminology is not based on US military terminology, or any other standard vocabulary. This causes confusion regularly, but changing it would cause just as much.

I agree. But again, it's in the Spec Ops group. Also remember, much of the details of SERE school, especially Level C, is still classified. I don't really think it's that much of a stretch for Special Operations types to get training in that sort of skillset.

You can save points anyway. GURPS reckons Gunner (Machine Gun) is a tripod-or vehicle-mounted machine gun, and Guns (Light Machine Gun) is bipod-mounted or hand-held. Those skills ought to have defaults between them. That's missing from the Basic Set, but Tactical Shooting, which is full of stuff that will be useful for your campaign, gives a both-ways default of -2. It does mean you need an actual point in Guns (LMG) so that your default of Rifle-2 is a skill you actually know, and you can then default Gunner (MG) off it at Rifle-4. Obviously, the Weapon Sgts will have several points in Gunner.

That would be fine for any of the other ODA Team members, but Weapons Sergeants will get specific training on vehicle mounted machine guns. That's got to be worth more than just defaulting from another skill, even if it's closely related.

There are ways to avoid spending points on that. You absolutely can be familiar with weapons you're using on a defaulted skill, and as GM you can just designate a list that characters will have familiarised with and take the points off the sheet. If you want to spend points on it, the cleaner way is to use the Cross-Trained perk, which is in Tactical Shooting. But remember to keep the point in Guns (LMG) for defaulting Gunner off.

That makes sense, but with that and all of the other point adjustments, you're still way above the 60-points that Kromm suggested.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

I wouldn't have necessarily added [Escape] to my template if the GURPS writers hadn't already added it to the SF Template (and also to the Combat Controller, Delta Force, Marine Recon, and SEAL templates as well).

Fair enough, though I'm surprised it's in there.

That makes sense, but with that and all of the other point adjustments, you're still way above the 60-points that Kromm suggested.

I'm not especially surprised about that; the nearest example characters I have have about 150 points in skills. You can, of course, chop the skills budget and keep the same skill levels by raising attributes. 3e Special Ops was keen to keep the levels of attributes "realistic," but the thinking has changed somewhat since those days and raising attributes as the result of lots of varied, intensive training is accepted by many people these days.

[Adina]

You might want to see how your template matches up with Kromms skill guidelines here. So it likes primary skills at 14-15, maybe a 16 in a specialty and important but secondary skills at 12-13 is the ballpark you should be in.