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Old 03-24-2019, 12:59 AM   #311
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

That is why I like to canvass opinion here. I may not agree and implement it, but at least I will have heard the arguments for and against.

Fortunately we don't have tournaments and so it is less important if my game runs on slightly different rules to yours.
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Old 03-24-2019, 09:32 AM   #312
Magesmiley
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Snohomish, WA
Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
It's a little confusing (not least because it is split over two separate pages), and even the expanded text on 12 seems contradictory. I am using 2.5 rules. I am also ignoring the hazards in this review.

From P 8.
1) Any vehicle that loses all its wheels in one position (usually just one
wheel, but oversized vehicles can have two or four) has its HC reduced
by 3 permanently, starting on the next turn. If only the tire(s) are lost,
HC drops by only 2.

From P 12.
2) Losing the last wheel or tire on a corner drops the vehicle’s handling
class by 2 if only the tire(s) are lost, or by 3 if the whole wheel was lost.

3) If the vehicle has more than one wheel at that corner, all wheels must be intact, or handling class is reduced by 3.

If you lose a wheel on a multi-wheel corner, you drop HC by 3 (3).
If you lose the last wheel on a corner, you drop HC by a further 3 (2 and 1).
If you lose the last tire on a corner, you drop HC by 2 (2 & 1).

3 sounds inconsistent and creates the odd situation that if you have a pair of wheels on corner loosing both is a collective 6 HC loss, whereas if you only had 1 wheel losing it would only be a 3 HC loss. I suspect it it a hangover from an earlier rule set that wasn't properly integrated.

I have always played it that losing each tire/wheel is a hazard, but you have to lose all the tires/wheels on a corner to suffer the permanent HC loss (and immediate drop to -6 HS).

Actually it's not that bad. I'm not sure what part of 12 seems contradictory, as only one of the three clauses applies:

Losing the first wheel or tire of a pair is a D2 hazard.
Losing the second and successive wheel or tire (as long as there are intact ones still on a corner) is a D3 hazard.
Losing the last wheel or tire on a corner drops handling to -6 (treated as a D6 hazard for the crash roll, per Scott Haring) and reduces HC by 2 if all wheels are intact or by 3 if any of them are not.

Losing wheels on two corners goes to crash table 1.
(arguably, this last one technically applies in addition to the 3rd one).
Page 8 2nd edition compendium (black cover).
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Old 03-24-2019, 04:44 PM   #313
Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London, UK
Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

Back to the Vehicles .
Seen a number of Cycles on Combat Garage with FOUR Vehicular Shotguns , a Windshell & no Armour to speak of ... improved on that basic idea .

Golden Guns Mk.3 - Hvy Cycle , Hvy Suspension , Med PP w/SCs , HTMs & 10pts Component Armour , 2 Cycle PR Tires , Cyclist w/SWC & 10pts Component Armour , 3 Linked VSGs Front , Plastic Armour : F30 , B8 , 2-3pt CWGs , Acceleration 10mph - 15mph w/HTMs , Top Speed 120mph , HC 2 , 1,300lbs , $7,516 .

New model Road Cycle for 2069 has better Acceleration & Top Speed at the cost of some protection . Excellent Anti Armoured Pedestrian & Anti Cycle Bike , the accuracy of the weapons can cause sustained hazards to opponent's as they chew through their Armour .
Load VSGs with Anti Personal Ammo to turn even those in Improved Body Armour to causalities with only a couple of hits
!

[ Seeing three guns on a Cycle immediately makes other player that it has zero Armour ... often to their cost . Also great at causing havoc in tight spaces normally only accessible by Peds : charged this design through the double doors of an Apartment Block from City Blocks pack . Cut down a number of gang members & escaped with minimum damage from small arms fire . Also useful for shredding Tires on light vehicles - VSGs & Armour can be rearranged to Back for attacks from front of targets .
Three VSGs are same weight (or lighter ...) than a HMG , more accurate AND do an average 0.5pts more damage if all hit . Okay a HMG with half load of HD is more useful against heavier vehicles though .
Antipersonnel Ammunition isn't too expensive for VSGs & just two hits will leave even IBA or Military BA Peds unconscious . Even Riot Shields only provide limited protection ! NOT to be used in Arenas , where invulnerable to VSG Metal Armour is far too prevalent ... ]
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Last edited by Racer; 03-26-2019 at 10:07 PM.
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Old 03-25-2019, 04:06 AM   #314
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer View Post
Load VSGs with Anti Personal Ammo to turn even those in Improved Body Armour to causalities with only a couple of hits [/I]
Is this legal? I vaguely recall an ADQ&A saying AP ammo was legit for shotguns (though I thought this only applied to handguns), but UACFH seems to recant on it.

Other than that I agree that the VSG is underused (especially when a bank of them are linked to cause a virtually guaranteed D3 handling issue).

Comparing it to the HMG gives a somewhat biased result. Compare it instead to the MML and it doesn't fair as well. The MML is $50 cheaper, 25lb heavier but does a full d6 damage. Sure the "to hit" is pants, but on average it is doing 3.5 damage rather than 2 so you don't need as many hits. If you upgrade to AP ammo for an extra $100 the average damage climbs to 4.5 per hit and so you need to hit less than half the time you would with the VSG.

The ammunition types for VSG are limited whereas you can get lots of novelty loads for your MML providing useful flexibility. Against Peds use regular ammo and get d6 damage just by hitting the wall near them (and get +4 to hit and maybe get some of their friends). Against vehicles you could go AP, but if metal features in your duels you may prefer the ability to strip it 1/3 of the time (rather than 1/6 of the time with AP or never with the VSG). Fancy some smoke, no problem. Tear Gas, Incendiary, Chaff, Foam... etc. The VSG offers none of this.

On balance the extra 25lb is well worth it.

EDIT:
A quick bit of EXCEL-fu tells the following:

TM__VSG___MML____AP MML
5___1.9____3.4_____4.4
4___1.9____3.2_____4.1
3___1.9____2.9_____3.8
2___1.8____2.5_____3.3
1___1.7____2.0_____2.6
0___1.4____1.5_____1.9
-1__1.2____1.0_____1.3
-2__0.8____0.6_____0.8
-3__0.6____0.3_____0.4
-4__0.3____0.1_____0.1
-5__0.2____0.0_____0.0
-6__0.1____0.0_____0.0

The TM is the overall targeting modifier. This determines the number of shots that hit and cause damage. At TM -7 both weapons always miss, at TM +5 and greater both weapons always hit (other than a rolled 2).
The number remaining columns is the average damage per shot fired (taking into account misses and using the average damage of the weapon in the event of a hit - i.e. 2, 3.5 and 4.5 respectively).

So as long as your overall targeting modifier isn't negative, you can expect the MML to outperform the VSG. At a TM of -3 down the VSG becomes a better proposition, but it should be noted that once you are down here the damage per shot is starting to become marginal. At -3 for example you are only hitting on a 9 (or less than 1/3 of the time - so expending your entire magazine to do 6 points total), and this is the point where I would consider waiting for a better shot to conserve ammunition instead).

Last edited by swordtart; 04-10-2019 at 10:30 AM. Reason: trying to make the table look like a table
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Old 03-25-2019, 11:14 AM   #315
juris
 
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Location: CA
Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

I'd beef up the VSG by making the basic ammo AP - so it does 4 hits to pedestrians and tires, 2 hits to armor. Then we could get rid of the FG which is a horrible weapon.

It's still inferior against peds to a MML - burst effect is king (fire at the ground for a +4 to hit).
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Old 03-25-2019, 02:18 PM   #316
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by juris View Post
I'd beef up the VSG by making the basic ammo AP - so it does 4 hits to pedestrians and tires, 2 hits to armor. Then we could get rid of the FG which is a horrible weapon.
Vehicular Shotguns....

<- laughs in Metal Armor

Quote:
Originally Posted by juris View Post
It's still inferior against peds to a MML - burst effect is king (fire at the ground for a +4 to hit).
NIMDAYD -- back-when, to prevent this sort of thing, the ruling was "any shot within 1" of a vehicle or ped has to include all targeting mods for that vehicle or ped". :)
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Old 03-26-2019, 12:55 AM   #317
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

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Originally Posted by 43Supporter View Post
NIMDAYD -- back-when, to prevent this sort of thing, the ruling was "any shot within 1" of a vehicle or ped has to include all targeting mods for that vehicle or ped". :)
I take it that was some local ruling? Why would this be a good idea, I am finding it hard to see what useful purpose it serves or what supposed abuse it prevents.

It also seems rather biased. I can't use the burst effect of an MML to hit a ped, but I can use a Heavy Rocket. Why the difference?

Sounds like someone was out thought tactically and just refused to accept it.
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Old 03-26-2019, 02:49 AM   #318
Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London, UK
Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
I take it that was some local ruling? Why would this be a good idea, I am finding it hard to see what useful purpose it serves or what supposed abuse it prevents.

It also seems rather biased. I can't use the burst effect of an MML to hit a ped, but I can use a Heavy Rocket. Why the difference?

Sounds like someone was out thought tactically and just refused to accept it.
No it was an Official Ruling - I'll look it up in ADQs when I'm at home . Think it was in Drivers Seat or Backfire ? Cause was the deadliness of linked Oil & Ice Guns during Championship Event hitting on a 5 or something ?

Imagine trying to hit a running , weaving Pedestrian , whilst your in a vehicle moving across their vector ? Not easy at all .

Agree that VSGs are useless versus Metal Armour - but then that's what your HESH RR Teammates are for !
As less than 5% of lighter Vehicles (those with less than 10 Wheels/under 10,000lbs) has Metal Armour since about 1998 , it's not a major problem .
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Old 03-26-2019, 06:14 AM   #319
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by 43Supporter View Post
"any shot within 1" of a vehicle or ped has to include all targeting mods for that vehicle or ped".
I can sort of understand using target Speed mods (but see below). It isn't actually relevant for a normal pedestrian however as their speed is generally below the 30 mph limit for speed mods.

I disagree with 43's assertion that ALL targeting mods should be included.

Generally when I am firing at peds, the ones I am trying to take out are stationary as they are firing at me. I don't think I should get +1 in that case either (my presumption was the +4 for hitting the ground already includes it - the ground is never moving*).

Why should the size modifier or whether I am in arc of fire of target side be relevant for a burst effect weapon?

We do however generally use the rules for "Missing". As firing at the ground is generally downward a miss should overshoot by D6 inches, this tends to assume a high elevation firer. Our local ruling however is to use the grenade scatter rules for all fire at the ground from less than 45 degrees as it provides a little more interest. This makes it less likely that you will hit the exact square you were aiming at even with a hit.

*CW doesn't take account of the speed the firer is moving other than a) reducing (but never increasing) the targets effective speed in some cases and b) allowing a stationary firer a +1 bonus. This makes your speed irrelevant. Presumably your targeting system takes all that into account for you (handwaving it away) and doing away with the need for a relative vector calculation (nasty maths pah!). To be consistent that means the ground should always classed as stationary regardless of your speed as well.

The ADQ&A "solution" was trying to take into account the difficulty of placing a shot onto the ground in front of a moving target. In reality the fix should simply have been to dispense with the oil/ice gun entirely and provide oil and ice grenades that could be used in a grenade launcher. The to hit would be raised to something credible and you would automatically be using the scatter rules as well. Peds would gain a useful extra addition to their arsenal.

Sometimes CW was it's own worst enemy.

Last edited by swordtart; 03-26-2019 at 06:27 AM.
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Old 03-26-2019, 11:30 AM   #320
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: The Unoffial 2056 Vehicle Guide

Shotgun Spikey by Swordtart:
Subcompact; Std Chassis; Improved suspension;
Small PP;
4 PR tires;
Driver.
Vehicular Shotgun with extra magazine w/20xStandard;
Bumper Spikes F;
Armour 40 pts. Plastic (F: 11 R: 9 L: 9 B: 9 T: 1 U: 1);
2x3 pt. Plastic Hubs F; 2x3 pt. Plastic Hubs, 2x3 pt. Plastic Guards B.
Cargo 28lb.
Cost: $3,675, Wgt: 2,272, HC: 3, Top Speed: 92.5, Accel: 5.


A low cost dueller designed for AM night events, the Shotgun Spikey is geared to a novice duellist and tend to be issued to all competitors to level the playing field.

Hardly the last word in firepower, the Vehicular Shotgun is a low impact weapon unsuited to conventional combat. In an arena fight against similarly armed opponents, it does however tend to prolong fights (which reduces expense for the arenas) and as a side benefit, since the damage is fairly digital, allows an accurate assessment of a vehicles ongoing viability. This tends to mean that surrenders happen at sensible junctures and more vehicles end up salvageable rather than stripped hulks. With plenty of ammunition and as easy to aim as a hose pipe even rank amateurs can rack up impressive damage scores. Usually mounted in a conventional fighter configuration front facing, sometimes it is mounted to one side to encourage opportunity attacks.

The performance is moderate but the handling is better than the majority of road vehicles. The amour is respectable given the likely opponents and significantly better than a Killa Kart. The bumper spikes allow gentle nudging rather than encouraging high speed ramming. Wheel Guards and Hubs round out the protection (and tires are unlikely to be a primary target for low skill gunners).

There is 28lb cargo capacity but with no space remaining, this will need to be personal equipment (likely at least BA, fire extinguisher and a hand weapon to supplement the VS). Alternatively some arenas offer limited competitor customisation with Armour upgrades, Body Spikes, an additional rear Bumper Spikes and even dischargers (multi coloured paint or smoke is a popular enhancement to the spectacle). This can add variety without significantly unbalancing the fight.

During the daytime when arena revenues are traditionally low, arenas often hire out vehicles such as these by the hour for practice and children's parties. On request the live ammunition can be replaced with paint pellet ammunition though this is not strictly necessary if decent body armour is worn.

Whilst designed purely for low level duelling it is not impossible that a recently victorious amateur might decide to take his prize out for a spin outside the arena. We encourage professionals and law abiding citizens to be gentle. He is unlikely to present a serious threat and is unlikely to provide worthwhile salvage.


These work very well in a small arena (I have one that fits on a single side of A4) they are nippy enough to cover the ground, but fragile enough to encourage tactical thinking. Probably the best use for the weapon to be honest.

Last edited by swordtart; 03-26-2019 at 11:33 AM.
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