Remove armor by force

[Onkl]

Hi guys

What would a protagonist have to do in combat to remove a foes armor?

Could you please describe the steps and rolls necessary or point me to a page in a book.

Thanks a bunch!

Cheers

Onkl

[Ulzgoroth]

Low Tech Companion 2 page 25 is relevant. I don't know of any rules for performing the basic 'remove armor' process on a resisting subject...doing so would probably take a ridiculous amount of time. It probably should be possible to wrench armor straps apart rather than cutting them, for a sufficiently powerful attacker...

[Anthony]

There isn't a standard rule for it, and in reality it would be much easier to kill the occupant than to forcibly remove the armor.

[Terwin]

Step 1) reduce target to below 0 HP (preferably above -1xHP if you want them alive at the end)

Step 2) Every second the target resists your attempts to remove their armor, they need to make a roll to stay conscious, so either 1) let them keep trying to resist until they pass out or 2) they stop resisting and let you take the armor off

Step 3) remove the armor from the unresisting (and possibly unconscious) target.

[Kromm]

You may find Targeting Armor (GURPS Low-Tech Companion 2, p. 25) of value. It provides rules for cutting the straps of rigid armor, causing it to fall off.

Flexible armor, being worn like clothing, has to be pulled off like clothing. Pin the target and then take a long action (serial Ready maneuvers) for seconds equal to half the armor piece's usual Don stat; see Donning Armor (GURPS Low-Tech, p. 102). Do not divide time by 4 for an "assistant," though – this is unwilling! Still, a pin buys you 10 seconds between attempts to break free, which is enough to pull off something with Don 20.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Flexible armor, being worn like clothing, has to be pulled off like clothing. Pin the target and then take a long action (serial Ready maneuvers) for seconds equal to half the armor piece's usual Don stat; see Donning Armor (GURPS Low-Tech, p. 102). Do not divide time by 4 for an "assistant," though – this is unwilling! Still, a pin buys you 10 seconds between attempts to break free, which is enough to pull off something with Don 20.

If clothing is the model, note that one can almost always pull off clothes and let them fall as they may much faster than one can don them properly, with every fold, tie or strap in its right place and adjusted to suit.

I'd say that if you don't care about possible damage to straps, buttons, sleeves or any other aspects of proper care of the clothes, you should be able to disrobe at roughly twice the speed at which you can dress, probably even more than that if there are complex bindings or other time-consuming fastenings which you are willing to rip.

I have no experience of doing the same with armour, but I would guess that similar issues held true.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Icelander

If clothing is the model, note that one can almost always pull off clothes and let them fall as they may much faster than one can don them properly, with every fold, tie or strap in its right place and adjusted to suit.

That's why I cited the rules for removing armor, which halve time for this very reason.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Icelander

If clothing is the model, note that one can almost always pull off clothes and let them fall as they may much faster than one can don them properly

Assuming a cooperative wearer, sure. On a struggling wearer, I'd note that you generally can't use the same hand for removing the clothes as you're using to pin the wearer (so probably x2 for only using one hand, and you have to maintain a one-handed pin). This will rapidly increase time to "totally impractical under combat conditions".

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

I am wondering if it might be possible to just partially remove flexible armor (like shift it to expose some skin to bypass the DR) without needing to pin the opponent.

For example, when Gaston pulls up the pantleg to expose the left calf of Stanley, Stanley is lying prone but doesn't really seem to be pinned, just subject to a leg grapple....

Given that is a loose trouser/hose leg as opposed to armour that was secured in place possibly with some kind of arming garment under it, I'd say we're not talking about similar things.

Nice example of double attack two handed grapple to leg and bite, with part of the grapple being to pull the material back (weather you want to adjust the grapple for that or just have it as special effect given Gaston is IIRC pretty rough and tough in a fight is up to you)

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

That seems about right. Is the 1/4 based on a Don (or is that Undon?) time of 4 seconds?

No, it's based on the fact that removing armor takes 1/2 the Don time, and I'm assuming that half of this time is spent preparing the armor for removal (by undoing straps and the like).

Originally Posted by Hellboy

One thing I would add here is that the 1st attack is simply to grapple the buckle/strap, not to actually progress with undoing it in any way.

My suggestion assumes the character has already grappled the relevant hit location.

Originally Posted by Hellboy

The problem would be against guys who rapid-strike Grapple + Unbuckle (both at -6 to the DX roll or Undress Others skill) or who have Extra Attack, since they could make progress before the defender has an enchance to use an Escape maneuver, even though they would still get either a Dodge or Leg Parry roll to attempt to hinder each progression.

I'm fine with this, actually. Yes, it does mean that a highly skilled character can remove armor more quickly than the nominal removal time indicates. I'm fine with that.

Originally Posted by Hellboy

Would that reflect having to re-secure the armor to the limb and get the buckles close to one another since after the last is undone it comes completely apart?

Pretty much, yeah. It also reflects the fact that putting on armor takes twice as long as taking it off does.

Originally Posted by Hellboy

Is that -1 to DX per buckle undone? Or just from the 1st to the 2nd last?

It's -1 once all the buckles on that hit location have been undone (in fact, for simplicity, my proposed system ignores the fact there are multiple straps/buckles/etc, treating it as though there were simply one being worked on).

Originally Posted by Hellboy

Got confused as this point, are we splitting "loosen strap" and "remove strap" as different attacks?

Not exactly. Basically, if you simply reduce the amount of time remaining to undo it, you've loosened it. Once the time remaining reaches 0 seconds, it has been undone. So, against an armor with a Don time of 20 seconds, you need 5 seconds to remove the straps. Your first four successful attacks to do so simply loosen the straps - the fifth one undoes them.

Note here I'm using "undo" rather than "remove." The assumption is that the buckles/straps/etc are part of the armor, not accessories that you add on (in the latter case, you'd be able to remove it, and the character would have to take it back before he could put it on his armor).

Originally Posted by Hellboy

Assuming the default DX roll to attempt this is a 2-handed grapple, what kind of penalty should there be for doing it 1-handed? Assuming favored hand, obviously -4 if using the off hand.

"The Sound of One Hand Grappling" (MA116) suggests a -2, so I'd go with that.

Originally Posted by Hellboy

Also I'm thinking some passive skill penalties to this DX roll even if the enemy isn't actively defending, simply inflicted by any form of movement by them. A default DX roll (or Undress Others skill) should be assumed for someone who is immobile.

The foe moving is what requires you to even need to roll in the first place - otherwise, you just use Ready maneuvers.