Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-11-2019, 08:27 AM   #21
atomiclich
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Default Re: Has anyone ever tried to create campaign based on Plato's Repuplic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Arguably, the People's Republic of China is structured the same as a platonic republic. The ruling Communist establishnent are the philisopher class (albeit more fallible), the armed forces are the soldier class, and the burgeoning ebtrepreneurs are the merchant class.
With some lenght of imagination yes (justice is just something they are lacking IMO), within same logic you could argue that orinal Karl Marx was transhumanist(actually I'm not exacly joking here).

--Mp
atomiclich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2019, 08:45 AM   #22
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Default Re: Has anyone ever tried to create campaign based on Plato's Repuplic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Colonel View Post
Isn't the correct term for a society of maximum fulfilment a eudaimonia? I was taught that "Utopia" simply means "nowhere" and can refer to any hypothetical society regardless of quality - it need be neither bad nor good, just hypothetical. If we don't like Eudaimonia the Eutopia would be effective Greek as well IIRC.
The way I learned it, "utopia" was a pun: the good place (eutopia) that is no place (outopia).
__________________
Bill Stoddard

A human being should know how to live fast, die young, and leave a beautiful corpse. Specialization is for insects.
whswhs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2019, 01:39 PM   #23
evileeyore
 
evileeyore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
Default Re: Has anyone ever tried to create campaign based on Plato's Repuplic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomiclich View Post
With some lenght of imagination yes (justice is just something they are lacking IMO), within same logic you could argue that orinal Karl Marx was transhumanist(actually I'm not exacly joking here).

--Mp
He kinda was... in that humans are completely incapable of "real" communism when a group exceeds their Monkeysphere.

(In that there have been fairly successful small communist societies, but anything over 50-100 or so people and the commune structure breaks down and becomes oligarchic socialism)




Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
The way I learned it, "utopia" was a pun: the good place (eutopia) that is no place (outopia).
Ditto actually.
__________________
Feel free to steal, borrow, fold, spindle, mutilate any rule, advantage, etc I come up with it.

Gurps Combat Club on RPoL. Come check it out, play in a tourney or two!
evileeyore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2019, 03:28 PM   #24
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Default Re: Has anyone ever tried to create campaign based on Plato's Repuplic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
(In that there have been fairly successful small communist societies, but anything over 50-100 or so people and the commune structure breaks down and becomes oligarchic socialism)
Certainly such small societies, up to maybe 120 or so, can work without formal institutions. But I'm not sure they're communist in the sense of "from each according to his ability; to each according to his needs." Yes, when a hunter has a big kill, they share it out with everyone. But if you never bother to go hunting, or you don't share your kills, or you're persistently obnoxious, the other hunters will drive you out into the wilderness, where you'll probably die. It seems more like a form of insurance, or keeping up your lodge dues, or maintaining a credit balance in an account. It's really economically rational, in that the meat will spoil before you can eat all of it, but if you didn't kill, getting a cut of someone else's kill can keep you alive, and has a lot more value than the spoiled remains of your current kill.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that the "sharing" is really an ongoing process of exchange, spread out over time, and in a society small enough so everyone knows who's pulling their weight and who isn't.
__________________
Bill Stoddard

A human being should know how to live fast, die young, and leave a beautiful corpse. Specialization is for insects.
whswhs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2019, 03:47 PM   #25
tshiggins
 
tshiggins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Denver, Colorado
Default Re: Has anyone ever tried to create campaign based on Plato's Repuplic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post

(SNIP)

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that the "sharing" is really an ongoing process of exchange, spread out over time, and in a society small enough so everyone knows who's pulling their weight and who isn't.
Communities such as those (which Marx referred to, in the aggregate, as "primitive communism") have no need of laws or formal governments.

Everybody knows everybody, the culture (to the extent any exists, at all) is wholly homogeneous, and kinship ties are well-understood.

That means any conflict can be (and usually is) resolved through either personal vendetta, or enforced conformity via social pressures backed by threat of exile.

No need for government, there and no social classes, either.
__________________
--
MXLP:9 [JD=1, DK=1, DM-M=1, M(FAW)=1, SS=2, Nym=1 (nose coffee), sj=1 (nose cocoa), Maz=1]
"Some days, I just don't know what to think." -Daryl Dixon.
tshiggins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2019, 01:23 AM   #26
Hide
 
Hide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Default Re: Has anyone ever tried to create campaign based on Plato's Repuplic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I have played with the idea of writing GURPS Utopia, a guide to campaigns set in utopian societies. Kind of the mirror image of dystopian settings like Paranoia. The big limiting factor is conflicts (...)
Sounds great.

Now, isn't conflict the actual element to make a story around utopias? Something like, the struggle to keep the status quo in front of their perpetrators (which usually are, outsiders).

Suddenly I recall the planet of the apes.
__________________
- 画龍点睛。Hide。
Hide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2019, 01:37 AM   #27
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Default Re: Has anyone ever tried to create campaign based on Plato's Repuplic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tshiggins View Post
Communities such as those (which Marx referred to, in the aggregate, as "primitive communism") have no need of laws or formal governments.

Everybody knows everybody, the culture (to the extent any exists, at all) is wholly homogeneous, and kinship ties are well-understood.

That means any conflict can be (and usually is) resolved through either personal vendetta, or enforced conformity via social pressures backed by threat of exile.
Well, yes. But it's not communism in the sense of "everyone is guaranteed that they will be freely given what they need to survive." The very smallness and informality mean that there is very little room for free riding/social loafing. They may not explicitly say "my price for this haunch of antelope is that you have to promise me a side of pig next week" (for one thing, hunting's not that predictable!), but if you don't contribute, they'll start looking at you and saying "I gave you a present last week. . . ."

I don't think that the qualifier about whether they have a culture is valid at all. A human society can't be without a culture, at least unless it's becoming extinct, if then. I've read, for example, that language studies of small, isolated groups find that they have incredibly complicated and irregular grammars, much more so than English or Mandarin or Arabic. . . .
__________________
Bill Stoddard

A human being should know how to live fast, die young, and leave a beautiful corpse. Specialization is for insects.
whswhs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2019, 07:20 AM   #28
ericthered
Hero of Democracy
 
ericthered's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
Default Re: Has anyone ever tried to create campaign based on Plato's Repuplic?

There's also a history of slightly larger communities making communism work, if they're composed of ideologically well motivated volunteers. These societies don't always work, but many can pull it off for a few decades. At which point the make-up of the community has changed via births, deaths, and so forth, and it enters a slow decline.
__________________
Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog
ericthered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2019, 02:02 PM   #29
tshiggins
 
tshiggins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Denver, Colorado
Default Re: Has anyone ever tried to create campaign based on Plato's Repuplic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Well, yes. But it's not communism in the sense of "everyone is guaranteed that they will be freely given what they need to survive." The very smallness and informality mean that there is very little room for free riding/social loafing. They may not explicitly say "my price for this haunch of antelope is that you have to promise me a side of pig next week" (for one thing, hunting's not that predictable!), but if you don't contribute, they'll start looking at you and saying "I gave you a present last week. . . ."
I don't think you and Marx would disagree on this, at all.

(Wait. I think the apocalypse is nigh....) 8O

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I don't think that the qualifier about whether they have a culture is valid at all. A human society can't be without a culture, at least unless it's becoming extinct, if then. I've read, for example, that language studies of small, isolated groups find that they have incredibly complicated and irregular grammars, much more so than English or Mandarin or Arabic. . . .
Okay, I'll cop to overstating that bit. :)
__________________
--
MXLP:9 [JD=1, DK=1, DM-M=1, M(FAW)=1, SS=2, Nym=1 (nose coffee), sj=1 (nose cocoa), Maz=1]
"Some days, I just don't know what to think." -Daryl Dixon.
tshiggins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2019, 10:07 PM   #30
jason taylor
 
jason taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Default Re: Has anyone ever tried to create campaign based on Plato's Repuplic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tshiggins View Post
Communities such as those (which Marx referred to, in the aggregate, as "primitive communism") have no need of laws or formal governments.

Everybody knows everybody, the culture (to the extent any exists, at all) is wholly homogeneous, and kinship ties are well-understood.

That means any conflict can be (and usually is) resolved through either personal vendetta, or enforced conformity via social pressures backed by threat of exile.

No need for government, there and no social classes, either.
Actually they do. They just don't have need of piles of red tape bigger than the Talmud and less aesthetically pleasing reflecting judgements about gobs of people with gobs of different specialties. Everybody needs laws because they have to have some idea what comes next. It is just that the laws are enforced differently and it is hard to tell them from custom because there is no clear line.

For instance if they have no way to end vendettas, they will have a generations long attempt at mutual genocide. And it will cause so many casualties in the end that it is a toss up whether or not it is be just as well if one tribe just wipes out or enslaves the other instead of dragging the mess out and getting more people killed.
__________________
"The navy could probably win a war without coffee but would prefer not to try"-Samuel Eliot Morrison

Last edited by jason taylor; 09-12-2019 at 10:11 PM.
jason taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
plato, utopia

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.