Is limb destruction too easy?

[gruundehn]

Without checking my books isn't there failed Health rolls involved in Crippling results? If so, that changes the situation radically.

[hal]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Have you ever tried to cut an actual rope? Not a piece of twine or cotton craft cord, but something intended to hold substantial weight? It's not easy. Put it under tension and you really do have to saw through it rather as if it were a stick, or chop it with an axe.

Hi MA,
This is where I'd have to disagree with you. Based on camping experience, cutting through rope that is about 3/8ths of a diameter is easier when it has a load on it than without a load. Cutting through looped rope held in the hand is going to be a similar experience (albeit easier) because you're artificially placing tension on the Loop itself similar to if it were holding a weight suspended over a branch. The difference being, the knife cutting through looped rope doesn't permit the rope any real give - away from the cutting action.

Cutting the same rope as it is against a tree (much as if it the tree were a cutting board) is easier yet.

I'm using a knife blade that per GURPS CHARACTERS would be deemed a small knife. Call it an extra fine blade due to modern technology, and we're looking at a blade that is per the rules, doing 1d-1 damage.

So, per RAW, does it take 3 points of damage to cut through rope, or 4 (1 DR to cut into it, 2 points of HP, and 1 DR to exit the rope - or 1 DR 2 HP and that's it)?

Either way, try cutting through meat with a bone of the same diameter as a finger and see how long THAT takes to cut through relative to the rope. Would you expect approximately the same amount of time, less time, or more time? <shrug>

It is a pet peeve of mine, and if people think that it is easier to cut through a finger than it is to cut through bone, by all means, go for it. The world doesn't end either way regardless of what people believe ;)

Just color me skeptical is all.

Hal

[D10]

I dont think so, no.

I wouldnt want a situation where I need two pistol shots to cripple an average man's limb.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by hal

Either way, try cutting through meat with a bone of the same diameter as a finger and see how long THAT takes to cut through relative to the rope. Would you expect approximately the same amount of time, less time, or more time? <shrug>

obPedantic: Fingers don't actually have much in the way of meat. They're mostly ligament and skin on top of that bone.

That aside, Chicken wings and shins are a pretty decent analogue; avian bone is certainly different, but frankly human fingers aren't legs of any kind. You don't have to saw at chicken shins, they're generally one hack with a decent kitchen implement. Same with the wings.

The thighs are rather more robust, but even the first joint of my thumb (the one buried in my palm) isn't as robust as a chicken's thigh bone and meat - it's really only an analogue for a limited part of, like, giant pro-basket-ball-player-mens-team hands.

[roguebfl]

that one shot destroying you leg? You have heard of knee-capping right?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

that one shot destroying you leg? You have heard of knee-capping right?

The problem isn't that its possible. The problem is that it basically happens 100%. In general wounding is less random than it probably should be, it's not specific to limb destruction.

[gruundehn]

Originally Posted by gruundehn

Without checking my books isn't there failed Health rolls involved in Crippling results? If so, that changes the situation radically.

Hey, I'm quoting myself!

I just checked the basic books. There is indeed a Health Check involved. The damage to a limb does not become crippling until a Health Check is failed. Until then it is just a potential crippling injury.

So I could do 100 points of damage to a limb but unless the victim failed the Health Check there is no crippling effect except some soreness or limping for a while or weakness in the arm etc.

Of course doing more than twice the amount to cripple the limb to said limb, before blow-through, indicates that the limb is going to be useless or missing if the Health Check is failed.

So crippling a limb isn't just doing enough damage, it has to be one attack, it has to be enough damage to meet the threshold and you have to fail a Health Check.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

that one shot destroying you leg? You have heard of knee-capping right?

FYI Knee capping was done more because of the pain and the long recovery period (with a side bonus of being less likely to accidental kill by hitting a larger blood vessel) process, rather than because it destroyed legs.

Surgeons in Northern Ireland became rather good at dealing with the injury and mitigating it's long term effects because of their familiarity with it.

[hal]

Originally Posted by gruundehn

Hey, I'm quoting myself!

I just checked the basic books. There is indeed a Health Check involved. The damage to a limb does not become crippling until a Health Check is failed. Until then it is just a potential crippling injury.

So I could do 100 points of damage to a limb but unless the victim failed the Health Check there is no crippling effect except some soreness or limping for a while or weakness in the arm etc.

Of course doing more than twice the amount to cripple the limb to said limb, before blow-through, indicates that the limb is going to be useless or missing if the Health Check is failed.

So crippling a limb isn't just doing enough damage, it has to be one attack, it has to be enough damage to meet the threshold and you have to fail a Health Check.

If I'm recalling correctly, there is a threshold where the limb can be crippled automatically - when the damage required to cripple is twice the minimum required, then it is automatic. The rule is optional I believe, and with regards to bullets, which was what started this thread, the damage has be twice that even (ie 4x the amount to potentially cripple). That is my recollection however, not a search into the specifics by doing a search into the rules.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by gruundehn

Hey, I'm quoting myself!

I just checked the basic books. There is indeed a Health Check involved. The damage to a limb does not become crippling until a Health Check is failed. Until then it is just a potential crippling injury.

So I could do 100 points of damage to a limb but unless the victim failed the Health Check there is no crippling effect except some soreness or limping for a while or weakness in the arm etc.

Of course doing more than twice the amount to cripple the limb to said limb, before blow-through, indicates that the limb is going to be useless or missing if the Health Check is failed.

So crippling a limb isn't just doing enough damage, it has to be one attack, it has to be enough damage to meet the threshold and you have to fail a Health Check.

No The HT check is only to check the duration of the crippling:

Temporary (make the HT check)
Lasting (fails the HT Check)
Permanent (crit fail the HT check)


Dismemberment/destroyed (i.e going over twice crippling threshold) has no HT check element.

This why the optional rule in HT about dismembering/destroying limbs with bullets is so important.


A 5.56mm even from a short barrel carbine will be what 4d at a minimum? So an average of 14pts. Without that optional rule for doubling the dismemberment threshold for bullets it will destroy a 10-12HP limb automatically.