An Ogre Mark VI and . . . what?

[wolf90]

Originally Posted by TheAmishStig

Edit: If they go in a set, please please please please please do an over-print run for the I and II...

So noted. (And I completely agree! Now to convince Phil . . .)

Originally Posted by sparky00

What are the physical differences between a Mk IIIB & an Oni?

Can the differences be resolved with paint, or are they sufficiently different that a separate sculpt is required to adequately represent each?

Well, that depends. Thematically, the Oni and Samurai are completely different beasts, with notable technological differences. So for the "true" Nihon Ogres, I'd argue they are not the same as a Mark III or V at all. (Besides, it would be nice to have them visibly distinct on a table or gameboard!). But . . .

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

According to the Nihon Empire · North American Divisions Supplement the SAMURIA (Mark5) and ONI (Mark3B) were equipped with modified Secondary Batteries of 3/3/3.

So, the only change is those SBs.

. . . The Nihon Empire made use of captured Combine equipment during their invasion, only substituting their own (superior) SB for those on the Combine Mk III and V. So, for many of the Ogres in the Nihon forces in North America, despite not being "true" Oni or Samurai, they served in those roles and looked very similar to the Combine Ogres (as in fact, that's what they were!)

D.

[Tim Kauffman]

Originally Posted by FJCestero

I'm so stealing those...
Attributed of course, but they're going into the Master List I keep.
Question Tim: Since these are later versions with the same names, do you have a preference to distinguish their incarnations? Your original Manticore had 2MB, 6SB, 12AP & 4MR+20. This one has 4SB+,12AP,5MR+15 & 2MSLA. Manticore-I and Manticore-II? Or -A & -B? Or something else?

These have all been WIP over the years, and at this point, I think all except the MANTICORE and HYDRA are final iterations. They are hybrid designs and Paneurope cobbled them together out of desperation more than anything. I think they embody this design philosophy nicely as "what if" Paneuro OGREs. This also made them the most flexible as far as tweeking things. For example, the Missile Racks and External Missiles were especially challenging to "get right". I'm still holding these two out as WIPs because I also am unsure of actually Sizes for them as well as some others.
But other than that, I do think the others are solid final designs.

I also would prefer that all of these in the link be simply "the original" designs without any earlier versions. If anything, I suppose the ones with the SBs could be said to be what was on the digital design board of Paneurope though, and none were produced. Those could be considered just pre-design plans.

Basically, I upgraded all SBs to Long Range Secondary Batteries (LRSBs) which are the same calibre as the Nihon SBs on the ONI and SAMURAI.
All External Missiles were also upgraded to D4. This embodies Paneuropes defensive doctrine. The extra 1D means a single OGRE SB cannot get 1:1 odds for example, you'll need two SBs, which is wasting two attack value points, or a MB.
Unless they all were equipped with this newer tech, they just were not anything special. Which is why I consider the previous iterations with SBs instead of the newer LRSBs not actual units ever produced, but just part of the iterative process and should be ignored. Paneurope developed (or stole and developed?) this new tech and upgraded on these OGREs specifically because they were worth the investment as cutting edge OGREs.
Of course, who's to say that other OGREs were not also upgraded with LRSBs and D4 External Missile Racks.
Point being, they would have upgraded these newer FanMade OGREs as a priority before doing the same on other OGREs. Then, of course, the question becomes, if the Peans did this Later Last War, what about Combine? I'd say sure they did as well with their Stealth OGREs as a priority, and then other OGREs. Again, this would be Later Last War.

Heres a link to the original MANTICORE and HYDRA compared to the "final" iterations:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/128248...posted-public/

Sorry. I didn't mean to side-track the thread. It's just that those modified SBs are a really big deal Imho. If Nihon had them, what about the other Factions and to what extent and when?

[Tim Kauffman]

Originally Posted by wolf90

Well, that depends. Thematically, the Oni and Samurai are completely different beasts, with notable technological differences. So for the "true" Nihon Ogres, I'd argue they are not the same as a Mark III or V at all. (Besides, it would be nice to have them visibly distinct on a table or gameboard!). But . . .

. . . The Nihon Empire made use of captured Combine equipment during their invasion, only substituting their own (superior) SB for those on the Combine Mk III and V. So, for many of the Ogres in the Nihon forces in North America, despite not being "true" Oni or Samurai, they served in those roles and looked very similar to the Combine Ogres (as in fact, that's what they were!)

D.

The plot thickens...i assumed the ONI and SAMURAI were what they named the captured Mark3B and 5 only. However, it would be awesome to have "true" Nihon ONI and SAMURAI as well as the upgraded Combine Mark3B and 5 in minis.
All you need is a sprue of upgraded Nihon SBs we can swap out and then make the "true" ONI and SAMURI which have visible distinctions to the Mark3B and 5.

[ColBosch]

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

The plot thickens...i assumed the ONI and SAMURAI were what they named the captured Mark3B and 5 only. However, it would be awesome to have "true" Nihon ONI and SAMURAI as well as the upgraded Combine Mark3B and 5 in minis.
All you need is a sprue of upgraded Nihon SBs we can swap out and then make the "true" ONI and SAMURI which have visible distinctions to the Mark3B and 5.

You missed my earlier post. The Oni and Samurai are not just Mk. III-Bs and Vs with upgraded SBs, they also swap out their external missiles for internal missile racks.

[ColBosch]

Tim, I like the idea behind a lot of your kitbashes, but I'm not thrilled with everything mounting the extended-range SBs. I really feel those should remain a unique feature for Nihon cybertanks.

[FJCestero]

Originally Posted by ColBosch

Tim, I like the idea behind a lot of your kitbashes, but I'm not thrilled with everything mounting the extended-range SBs. I really feel those should remain a unique feature for Nihon cybertanks.

A unique feature for Nihon cybertanks... and Superheavy Tanks :D
(Actually, I agree with you. Don't tell Tim!)

[Tim Kauffman]

Originally Posted by ColBosch

You missed my earlier post. The Oni and Samurai are not just Mk. III-Bs and Vs with upgraded SBs, they also swap out their external missiles for internal missile racks.

Sorry, I sure did.

So the ONI and SAMURAI were either captured Mark3Bs and 5s that were not modified, or they were modified Mark3Bs and 5s with Nihon SBs and Missile Racks. Either way, they were called by the same names...which seems a bit odd...unless we say the captured ONI and SAMURAI were called Steel Demon and Steel Warrior while the modified ones were called ONI and SAMURAI. I don't know if this was intended in the supplement, but it would help to distinguish which were modified and which were not. The captured are named using the Combine language, while the modified ones use Nihon.

[Tim Kauffman]

Originally Posted by ColBosch

Tim, I like the idea behind a lot of your kitbashes, but I'm not thrilled with everything mounting the extended-range SBs. I really feel those should remain a unique feature for Nihon cybertanks.

Originally Posted by FJCestero

A unique feature for Nihon cybertanks... and Superheavy Tanks :D
(Actually, I agree with you. Don't tell Tim!)

It's fun to kick ideas around and I always appreciate and enjoy the discussions.

I am reminded of jet technology near the end of WW2 when the Nazis sent plans to Japan and they then began developing their own versions in secret underground facilities.

Ok...what if 3/3/3 SBs were actually a secret joint development project by Paneurope and Nihon? After all they were fighting a common enemy. We could leave the details deliberately shady and up to speculation which Faction actually initiated development.

All those FanMade units of mine only become interesting, viable and complimentary to the OGREverse (Imho) if and only if they have 3/3/3 SBs.

[ColBosch]

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

Sorry, I sure did.

So the ONI and SAMURAI were either captured Mark3Bs and 5s that were not modified, or they were modified Mark3Bs and 5s with Nihon SBs and Missile Racks. Either way, they were called by the same names...which seems a bit odd...unless we say the captured ONI and SAMURAI were called Steel Demon and Steel Warrior while the modified ones were called ONI and SAMURAI. I don't know if this was intended in the supplement, but it would help to distinguish which were modified and which were not. The captured are named using the Combine language, while the modified ones use Nihon.

The Oni and Samurai are not captured models. They're new designs based on modified Mk. III-B and V plans.

[philreed]

Originally Posted by wolf90

So noted. (And I completely agree! Now to convince Phil . . .)

I am not convinced. The two Ogres created as a part of this project -- the MKVI and something else -- will be on a family mold. The _only_ way to pull off the request would be to invest thousands of dollars into a tool that is only MKI and MKII designs.

I know I am seen as the voice of unfun around here, but someone has to say "no" or else the line will stop completely. My goal is to make sure each Ogre project is profitable so that we can justify creating more and more Ogre products for years to come.