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Old 03-13-2017, 09:35 AM   #41
Anders
 
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Getting the Wind Knocked Out of You

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Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
When I was a kid I was running through a field with some friends and there was a knocked-down wire fence and it snagged my foot and I fell flat prone like a chopped tree and the breath was knocked out of me. I remember remaining conscious and my friends were circled around saying "give him air" and it took me a good bit before I could inhale again. I remember panic more than pain.

I don't know if this would be a hit to the vitals... the impact was pretty well distributed over the torso, didn't puncture a kidney or anything. Didn't bleed. Don't recall any bruising. Kind of just a spasm, like getting hiccups or going into a coughing spasm.
Sounds like a diaphragm spasm
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Old 03-13-2017, 09:52 AM   #42
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Getting the Wind Knocked Out of You

I'd say getting the wind knocked out of you is nicely covered by the rules in MA that allows cr attacks to target the vitals. Causing a HT check for stun.

Now in real life getting the wind knocked out of you doesn't always mean you end up on the floor prone. But it's a close enough match for the immediate effects
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Old 03-13-2017, 10:33 AM   #43
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Getting the Wind Knocked Out of You

As a kid, I fell from the second level of a shed/barn perfectly horizontal onto the wood flooring. I could only take very shallow breaths for 30-45 minutes. I had to remain calm and lie down on the couch while things reset.
Thinking back, I'm surprised I didn't panic making things much worse.

As I had a Ht above 1, I'm sure I didn't fail over 2000 Stun rolls.
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Old 03-13-2017, 10:46 AM   #44
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Getting the Wind Knocked Out of You

I agree with Krom's explanation. I trained various martial arts (mostly full-contact) for last 16 years, and I know that in "real" (even in the competitions maybe) fight I can withstand blows which are knock me down (or even off!) in just sparring or other "friendly fight". Twice in my life, I was kicked into groin in "serious brawl", as hard as (in one case) later I was need go to physician - and (believe or not) this WASN'T stop me! Of course, there was this "wrong feeling", light "lost of competence" or something, but generally I was still fighting like a crazy cat, and "real terrible pain" catched me few seconds AFTER fight.

Similarly with solar plexus blows or (this is worse) liver blows. In "real" (or just "hot-head" tourament fight) I must be hitted with significantly more power to knock me down/out, than at just sparring fight. I think rules for "real fight" and stunning, in GURPS are working moderately well :)

Separately from that, I tkink there should be any "cinematic rules" for this, for situations like "standing stun" ("FINISH HIM!" from Mortal Kombat or something), and to avoid auto-dropping weapon etc.
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Old 03-13-2017, 10:52 AM   #45
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Getting the Wind Knocked Out of You

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
As a kid, I fell from the second level of a shed/barn perfectly horizontal onto the wood flooring. I could only take very shallow breaths for 30-45 minutes. I had to remain calm and lie down on the couch while things reset.
Thinking back, I'm surprised I didn't panic making things much worse.

As I had a Ht above 1, I'm sure I didn't fail over 2000 Stun rolls.
Well TBH 30-45 mins is a lot longer than the usual "getting the wind knocked out of you" so I think we already talking about an unusual example.

Thing is your talking about falling from a 2nd story, the rest of the thread has been amount getting punched or tripping.

So TBH I think I'd still describe what happened to you as a shock to diaphragm that is similar to what happens when most people get the wind knocked out of them. Just in your incident it was somewhat greater in effect.


However RL is not going to fit into neatly defined GURPS brackets, that said if you were limited to lying still and breathing shallowly I think that being unconscious (in GURPS terms) is a enough approximation of the result. So yeah maybe that was a fail by 5 situation (and the situation itself was probably also somewhere in between HT and HT-5 major wound)

Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-14-2017 at 12:21 AM.
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Old 03-13-2017, 11:02 AM   #46
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Getting the Wind Knocked Out of You

Adapting the "Cool Under Fire" rules (TS34), having any wound that can cause Knockdown and Stunning also call for a Fright Check may also be appropriate, as the most likely result of a Failure on the latter is mental stun. Optionally, only call for this if the target has less than, say, MoS 4 on the HT check.

In certain cinematic settings, the +5 for being in the heat of battle doesn't apply here, but the only result possible on a Failure is mental stun. Critical Failure means the target passes out.
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Old 03-13-2017, 07:17 PM   #47
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Getting the Wind Knocked Out of You

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What if as a house rule setting feature, any time you are mentally or physically stunned, you begin to hold your breath and can only stop holding it when the stun ends?

That wouldn't create any FP loss in combat so long as you broke out of your stun before HTx1 seconds, but if someone with low Will/low HT kept failing and couldn't stop freaking out and holding their breath, they could actually pass out from the shock of pain or from fear.

Although... that's only if you're actually engaged in combat, like doing active defenses or running away. If you stand petrified, it would take longer (HTx10 seconds) before you began to lose FP from the inability to breath from the physical or mental stun house rule, since you can hold your breath for longer in GURPS when you aren't doing anything (which makes sense, lower oxygen demand)
Added complexity for likely 0 gain. I've never seen anyone stunned for double-digit seconds. On top of that, if you are stunned, you aren't defending, running, or anything else. I've definitely never seen anyone stunned for 40+ seconds.
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Old 03-13-2017, 08:02 PM   #48
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Getting the Wind Knocked Out of You

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B420 under 'effects of stun' says you can perform any active defense at +4. It does say you can't retreat while doing it though...
You're right, sorry; momentary lapse.

Quote:
B364 also does say you can't move though... kinda strange that you can technically dodge at -4 but not actually traverse ground in any way. Even if it doesn't move the 1 yard that retreat requires, dodging often involves some footwork, so some kind of traveling should be able to happen, even if was reduced to the pace of a crawl.
Well, that's why it's at -4. Seems fine to me.

Quote:
So the idea is it only takes ~10 seconds before you begin to lose FP, if you are in combat. Actually ~5 seconds since time is halved if you don't spend a 1 second ready maneuver to take a deep breath before holding it.

Taking a looong time to get out of the stun on a fear check is feasible if you have a low Will especially since some of the failed fear check outcomes on the table have your roll to end the stun suffer the same penalty the fear check did in the first place.
I suppose it could come up for fright check results. While we're discussing that, i had forgotten how nasty result 11 is. I've always thought that the results for 11, 12 were way too early. It takes a 17 to get a result that is, IMO, worse in combat.
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Old 03-13-2017, 10:32 PM   #49
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Getting the Wind Knocked Out of You

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11 v 14/15 is extra 1d6 stun vs taking 1d6 FP

Probably more balanced if the optional cinematic rule to allow spending 1 FP to cancel a the failed HT roll that caused Stuns is used from MA132 "Shaking It Off".

This rule wouldn't help you cancel out the failed Will roll which results in mental stun, but losing the FP would affect you more if you're actually injured by the monster and stunned in the process and need to fight your way through the monster.
Actually, Shake it off is used to ignore failed HT rolls for knockdown/unconsciousness. I know the rule you're talking about but I can't remember where it's from.

Regardless, I would almost always prefer to lose 1d fatigue than 1d stunning with some noted exceptions in games using Extra Effort in combat and Last Gasp and usually not even then. 7+ turns of Stun usually mean death.
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Old 03-14-2017, 01:06 PM   #50
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Getting the Wind Knocked Out of You

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Ask a physician: Being hit hard enough to interrupt your breathing causes real injury. The body blow that winds you but doesn't injure you is as mythical as the head blow that causes unconsciousness but doesn't injure you.
Not to pick a fight, but commotio cordis is a an example of precisely that--a blow that puts a muscle into spasm without damaging the muscle. (If actual damage is done to the heart under similar circumstances, it is contusio cordis.) And if a blow to one muscle can cause that muscle to go into spasm without damaging the muscle (from the blow), it stands to reason that it would be possible to do that to another muscle, if hit precisely in the right spot at the right time. Again, if comotio cordis can be used as a template, then that suggests that 1-3% of blows to the diaphragm could potentially cause spasm, as long as the are sufficiently powerful and hit at precisely the right time in the muscle's breathing cycle, and in precisely the correct spot.

Since the breath cycle can be voluntary, it would make sense that someone in better physical condition would be more aware of their breath, and therefore less vulnerable to the condition. As one of the first things anyone learns about taking blows to the torso is to exhale & tighten the stomach muscles, I suspect that the key moment for triggering a spasm would be during air intake.

Again, just surmising. But it seems to make sense.
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