[DF] Striking ST (only on surprise attack): what's a surprise attack?

[scc]

Originally Posted by Kromm

"Surprise attack" means "An attack against which you have no active defense because you could not see it coming." That is, an attack from behind, or by someone invisible or otherwise undetectable to you, or in a social situation where you were caught completely off-guard. The important part is that (1) you did not expect to be attacked at that instant, and (2) as a result, you have no defense roll. Condition (1) by itself isn't sufficient; if you didn't expect an attack but are merely stunned and at -4 to defend, it isn't a surprise attack (from GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 11: Power-Ups, p. 35: "If the victim of the blow would receive an active defense, even at -4 for being stunned, this doesn't count!"). Condition (2) by itself isn't sufficient, either; thus, making an All-Out Attack, being told not to defend via Mind Control spells, etc. would not work.

Wait, isn't (2) a result of (1)? Or is there some circumstance where a character may not be suspecting an attack but still gets defense roll(s)?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by scc

Wait, isn't (2) a result of (1)? Or is there some circumstance where a character may not be suspecting an attack but still gets defense roll(s)?

Mentally stunned due to surprise.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by scc

Wait, isn't (2) a result of (1)? Or is there some circumstance where a character may not be suspecting an attack but still gets defense roll(s)?

Characters who are mentally stunned due to an ambush aren't expecting an attack, but are able to defend against it, albeit at -4. Similarly, many GM's allow Hearing checks to notice an attack coming from behind, allowing it to be defended against at a similar -4 (IIRC). As it's at a similar penalty, one could also opt to consider attacks from an invisible foe to fall into this category as well.

[GodBeastX]

Originally Posted by Anthony

All-out attack is already a stupid choice to make almost all the time. No need to make it even more stupid. I'd be tempted to say that you can defend at -4 during an AoA.

All out attack Feint and then strike is a staple move that has felled quite a few enemies in campaigns. Nothing like have a success by 10 on your feint roll to utterly obliterate someone.

[Dark Archon]

I'd say that surprise attack is first one in combat AND one aganist which you have no active defence. After that, nothing is suprising you really anymore.

[Kromm]

1. If you are not expecting to be attacked but are, you are stunned. You still receive an active defense if you can see your attacker, but this is at -4. This most often results from tactical or social surprise.

2. If you are attacked from outside your field of vision, you get no active defense – not even if you were 100% on alert and expecting to be attacked. This most often results from an attack from behind or by someone you cannot see (invisible foe, sniper you fail a Vision roll to notice, etc.).

Notice how neither requires the other.

The -60% limitation specifically means that both conditions must apply, most often with #2 resulting from #1; e.g., the assassin not only achieves tactical surprise but also does so from behind. Requiring just one of these things would be a far less severe limitation – at worst -30%.

Both of these conditions actually have two parts, too. The first is composed of "you are surprised" and "you are stunned." The second is made up of "you can't see the attacker" and "you have no active defense." It's possible to be surprised but not stunned (say, you weren't expecting an attack but have Combat Reflexes), stunned but not surprised (you are wounded or fail a Fright Check), unable to see an attacker but able to defend (you make a Hearing roll), or unable to defend but able to see an attacker (you did an All-Out Attack). Restricting the condition to any of these smaller particles would be an even smaller limitation – at worst -20%.

Since a DF campaign will regularly feature huge monsters with vast amounts of DR and HP but very low IQ and serious mental problems, and as these will always All-Out Attack, letting the -60% version affect them with every strike would be grossly overpowered. Either charge -20% for that or don't do it at all.