[DF] Striking ST (only on surprise attack): what's a surprise attack?

[CrimsonDawn]

Any attack at an unaware opponent? Or and attack on a surprised enemy (who is stunned and rolling the IQ +1/turn rolls to recover)? If an enemy stunned from surprise counts, how about other stuns?

The limitation value just made me wonder.

[mlangsdorf]

I'd say from the text of DF2 (pp 11-12) it only applies when your opponent is completely unaware (basically sleeping, but I might allow it during a social sequence with a fast-draw knife) or after you make a successful Stealth roll at the start of combat.

I wouldn't allow it for a surprised character unless you also made the Stealth roll, and I certainly wouldn't allow it for a generically stunned character.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

I'd say from the text of DF2 (pp 11-12) it only applies when your opponent is completely unaware (basically sleeping, but I might allow it during a social sequence with a fast-draw knife) or after you make a successful Stealth roll at the start of combat.

I wouldn't allow it for a surprised character unless you also made the Stealth roll, and I certainly wouldn't allow it for a generically stunned character.

The OP is almost certainly asking about the Thief template's option (in DF3) to buy 10 levels of Striking ST with a -60% Limitation that has something to do with surprise (I don't recall the specifics).

That one always struck me as too cheap. It's an obvious atempt to try to simulate the backstabbing of AD&D or the sneak attack of D&D3, but it has to work against conscious enemies during combat in order to be worthwhile, yet on the other hand (which I take is your point) -60% is way too much of a Limitation. -40% or even -30% would probably be more reasonable for a "Backstab" Limitation.

Also, it may be a bit odd that the bonus is Striking ST, since that helps to penetrate armour. I'm not sure what else it should be (GURPS isn't very flexible), but something to do with knowing which vulnerable body parts to aim at. Or knowing which vulnerable armour spots to aim at. Usually the armour is specifically made to not have vulnerable points over vulnerable body parts, so it doesn't make perfect sense to me.

[Kromm]

A surprise attack is one against which the target would get no defense at all. Not a defense at -2 (as if from the side, from above, or during a runaround attack), -4 (as if stunned or defending against an invisible foe), or any other penalty . . . no defense, as against an attack from behind or by an ally who suddenly turns on you.

And Striking ST is an entirely fine way to do it. It represents being able to line up your attack perfectly – a bit like a Telegraphic Attack, but with focus on perfect form and muscle use, not aim.

[CrimsonDawn]

Edit: Already had a clear answer from Kromm himself! Thanks!

[GWJ]

I'm sorry about refreshing old thread (I don't wanted create a new one for one simple question, while I found existing), but I have question about "Only for surprise attack" limitation.

If this "represents being able to line up your attack perfectly" - does this apply also to ranged attacks, when thief/assassin is able to perfecly line up his attack before shot, and victim is not aware his position?

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by GWJ

I'm sorry about refreshing old thread (I don't wanted create a new one for one simple question, while I found existing), but I have question about "Only for surprise attack" limitation.

If this "represents being able to line up your attack perfectly" - does this apply also to ranged attacks, when thief/assassin is able to perfecly line up his attack before shot, and victim is not aware his position?

For a thrown weapon, sure. Not so much on bows, though.

[GWJ]

I know that standard Striking ST apply only for melee and thrown weapon damage. For "realistic man" with Striking ST, this can be effect of something like plyometric training which give his muscles more strength for dynamic moves eg., boxer or other martial artist--striker, or blacksmithin medieval setting.

But if this limitation apply for weak thief, and is only for attacks from surpsise, this mean this is something different. If this is not real muscle-power, I think it should apply either to every ranged attack, or to none ranged attack.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by GWJ

I know that standard Striking ST apply only for melee and thrown weapon damage. For "realistic man" with Striking ST, this can be effect of something like plyometric training which give his muscles more strength for dynamic moves eg., boxer or other martial artist--striker, or blacksmithin medieval setting.

But if this limitation apply for weak thief, and is only for attacks from surpsise, this mean this is something different. If this is not real muscle-power, I think it should apply either to every ranged attack, or to none ranged attack.

Striking ST doesn't apply to bows/crossbows because a) the weapon has a set ST, and b) you need Lifting ST to draw them. Thus, thrown weapons get Striking ST bonuses, but bows/crossbows don't.

And the Thief in DF isn't exactly "weak."

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Striking ST doesn't apply to bows/crossbows because a) the weapon has a set ST, and b) you need Lifting ST to draw them. Thus, thrown weapons get Striking ST bonuses, but bows/crossbows don't.

And the Thief in DF isn't exactly "weak."

Err, actually it does, in a way:

Originally Posted by Kromm

Strongbow lets a ST X person of sufficient skill shoot a ST X+2 bow; this is a property of the person, not of the bow. From an external, black-box perspective, when shooting a bow, this archer is indistinguishable from archers whose ST, Arm ST, and/or Striking ST total X+2. That is, a ST 11 man with Strongbow and a high Bow skill has ST 13 for all purposes as an archer, and can't be distinguished from a natural ST 13 archer.

A ST Y elven bow has damage and range for ST Y+2. That's a property of the bow, not of the archer (and, incidentally, simply a port of the high-tech compound bow rules to the dungeon). A ST Y archer shooting a ST Y elven bow gets the performance of a ST Y+2 bow.

When a ST X man who's ST X+2 with bows chooses a bow, he chooses a ST X+2 bow. If he chooses an elven bow, then he chooses ST Y = X+2, and it looses arrows at ST Y+2 = X+4.

In short, somebow with the right perk and a bow that costs 17 times as much -- call it a $3,400 longbow -- can get +4 ST and thus +2 thrust damage. Or he could not pay 1 point for a perk and 7 points for Signature Gear, use an ordinary bow, and get +2 to skill instead. It's up to the player which is more important.

Originally Posted by Kromm

A real munchkin would put all 8 points into Striking ST 4 (One Attack, Bow, -60%) [8] and not have to worry about raising Bow above DX or relying on a specific piece of gear.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Bruno has it . . . In combat, strikes for damage = Striking ST and grapples = Lifting ST, and arrows are strikes, just like punches and sword blows. This makes things vastly easier. In any event, it's a continuum, with Lifting ST making some sense at the end where you're taking a long series of Aim and Wait maneuvers, and Striking ST making more sense once you get into Quick-Shooting bows and cocking crossbows with a single sharp jerk when you have a foot in the stirrup. Given such a split, I tend to err on the side of greater point cost.