Templates -Breaking the Wall of Words

[Joseph Paul]

I am one of those in the minority that looks at the alphabetized list of advantages, disadvantages, and skills and my eyes water. Trying to make sense of what is actually there (one...two...three...no, four weapon skills) is difficult as well as sorting out what happens if I make a change.

What I would like is some technical know how on reformatting a template so that it makes more sense to me and hopefully players. Essentially lift the verbiage onto Excel (other options?), have it treat it like data that is being unpacked. The data is looked over and compared to some standards (array formulas?) and reformatted into categories of my choosing. Melee Skills, Business Skills, Physical Skills, Repair/Science/Technical Skills, etc.

tl,dr - i would like to petition the hive-mind for ideas on automating the reformatting of GURPS templates.

[Varyon]

I Am Not a Programmer, but basically every option in a GURPS template has its price written in brackets, so the first thing I'd have an automated system do would be to separate things out using that - everything after one ] and up to and including the next ] would be made into its own line. Next have it look for lists - the form "n: " shows the start of a list, and so long as the next is "n+1: " it's part of the same list; if you have the next part after a period (.) not follow this form, that's the end of the list. For other parts where the player has a choice, I think they all start with "N points chosen from...", so set up to recognize that. Those are set off with a • symbol or a return (new line), so you should be able to use those to set your bounds there. Some of your traits are going to be in the form of "Animal Handling (any), Disguise (Animals), Hidden Lore (Elementals, Faeries, or Nature Spirits), and Weather Sense, all (A) IQ-1[1]", so you'll have to set it up to recognize and separate those out. Once everything is separated out into individual traits and the choices are configured correctly, you could rearrange them based on name for what category (combat, survival, etc) they fell under.

Sounds like a heckuva lot of work, and you probably wouldn't be able to share the results without violating SJGames' copyright. Once you have the program/script/whatever that can parse through existing tables, however, that might be shareable. It certainly would be useful to have.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

I am one of those in the minority that looks at the alphabetized list of advantages, disadvantages, and skills and my eyes water. Trying to make sense of what is actually there (one...two...three...no, four weapon skills) is difficult as well as sorting out what happens if I make a change.

What world do you live in?
Seriously, the majority of people find it hard to read and at least one GURPS author uses the term "makes my eyes bleed".

It is absolutely easier to write up an easier to read template than the standard one. The trouble is easier to read directly competes with conciseness and lower word count.
Give every skill and advantage its own line and it is MUCH easier to read, but takes up more of the page and with lots of wasted space.
Filling that space with art, boxes or other layout tricks costs more money.

I am eager to see the change Kromm made for the new templates in the DF box.

For what its worth here is what I do for my own games.
I break things down by major category and list them in alphabetical order or or if its a long list by imporance.

So Stats up top.
Combat: Sword (DX+2) -16 [n]; Knife (DX)-14 [n], etc
Combat Reflexes [15]
Social: Diplomacy (IQ) -12 [n]; Fast Talk (IQ) [n]
Charisma 1 [5[; Rep (good guys +1, Bad guys -1) [n]

Long lists may just list each skill or advantage in narrower sub groups or on their own line.
My Traveler GM lists it all line by line in alphabetical order which is very easy to read but takes up 2 pages.

Originally Posted by Varyon

I Am Not a Programmer, .... (sniped a pretty good parsing explanation for someone who is not a programmer)

Sounds like a heckuva lot of work, and you probably wouldn't be able to share the results without violating SJGames' copyright. Once you have the program/script/whatever that can parse through existing tables, however, that might be shareable. It certainly would be useful to have.

Yeah I bet the script could be shared free of charge with SJG permission.

[Kalzazz]

Rexx has some spiffy string processing power, so if I was to do such a thing I'd probably use Rexx

While I am a programmer, my desire to program drops off immediately after work

[Joseph Paul]

Kalzazz - I think I know someone that has some familiarity with that.... Thanks for the recommendation.

Refplace - Mostly concerned about my internal world building/game play so spending column inches isn't the problem it would be for publication. And ultimately templates get copied to character sheets and I think I could arrange a page of inputs on the variables for a template, slap in answers and have it kick out the sheet. Alternately creating a pdf file of a couple of hundred templates (Alien Species #1 Soldier, Alien Species#2 Soldier, Alien Speci...you get the idea) and letting players look that over after making it more readable and grouping skills into categories so that they have a better idea of what the template does would be good.

[Joseph Paul]

The Big Book of Templates - would people pay for just those?

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Refplace

What world do you live in?
Seriously, the majority of people find it hard to read and at least one GURPS author uses the term "makes my eyes bleed".

It is absolutely easier to write up an easier to read template than the standard one. The trouble is easier to read directly competes with conciseness and lower word count.
Give every skill and advantage its own line and it is MUCH easier to read, but takes up more of the page and with lots of wasted space.
Filling that space with art, boxes or other layout tricks costs more money.

Let's see what it would look like. I have my Psi-Wars templates, which I can legally post here as they're mine, but they're roughly the same density as an Action template.

The Spy template looks something like this:

Spy 250 points

Attributes: ST 10 [0], DX 14 [80]; IQ 14 [80]; HT 11 [10]

Secondary Characteristics: Damage 1d-2/1d; BL 20 lbs; HP 10 [0]; Will 14 [0]; Per 15 [5]; FP 11 [0]; Basic Speed 6.00 [-5]; Basic Move 6 [0]

Advantages: Craftiness +2 [10] or Impersonator +2 [10], Luck [15]. ● Choose a total of 25 points from the following: DX +1 [20], IQ +1 [20], Per +1 to +3 [5/level], Absolute Timing [2], Acute Senses (Any) [2/level], Ally (Robot, 50%, almost all the time) [9], Appearance (Attractive or Beautiful) [4 or 12], Bug Sweeper [1], Cat Fall [10], Combat Reflexes [15], Compact Frame [1], Contact Group (Any, skill 12, 15 or 18, 9 or less) [5, 10, 15], Craftiness +1 to +4 [5/level], Cultural Adaptability [10], Cultural Familiarity [1], Danger Sense [15], Daredevil [15], either Eidetic Memory or Photographic Memory [5 or 10], Flexibility [5], Gizmos 1-3 [5/level], High Heeled Heroine [1], High Manual Dexterity +1 to +4 [5/level], Honest Face [1], Impersonator +1 to +4 [5/level], Intelligence Rank 1-4 [5/level], Language [6], Night Vision 1-9 [1/level], Perfect Balance [15], Signature Gear [Varies], Security Clearance [5-15], Serendipity 1-2 [15/level], Voice [10], Wild Talent 1 [20], Zeroed [10], or improve Luck [15] to Extraordinary Luck [30] for 15 points.

Disadvantages: Choose -15 from Code of Honor (Professional) [-5], Compulsive Behavior (Thrill-Seeking) [-5*], Curious [-5*], Duty to Intelligence Agency* (9 or less to 15 or less, Extremely hazardous) [-10, -15,-20], Fanaticism (Faction) [-15], Obsession (Uncover particular secret or bring down particular organization/enemy) [-5], Overconfidence [-5*], Secret (“Is a spy”, “Double Agent” or Past crimes) [-10 to -20], Sense of Duty (Team or Faction) [-5 or -10], Workaholic [-5]; ● Choose another -30 points from the above or from ST -1 [-10], HP -1 to -3 [-2/level], Alcoholism [-15], Callous [-5], Impulsiveness [-10*], Jealousy [-10], Insomniac [-10 to -15], Loner [-5*], Nightmares [-5*], Pacifism (Cannot harm innocents) [-10], Paranoia [-10], Post-Combat Shakes [-5*], Signature Gear [varies], Signature Spaceship [varies], Skinny [-5], Social Stigma (Criminal Record), Stubbornness [-5], Trademark [-5 to -15], Trickster [-15*].

Primary Skills: Intelligence Analysis (H) IQ+1 [8]-15, Observation (A) Per+1 [4]-16, Search (A) Per+1 [4]-16, Stealth DX+21 [8]-16. ● Choose four of Filch (A) DX+1 [4]-15, or Pickpocket (H) DX [4]-14. Forced Entry (E) DX+2 [4]-16, Acting, Disguise both (A) IQ+33 [4]-17, Electronics Operation (Communications, Security, Sensors, or Surveillance), Holdout1, Shadowing1, Fast-Talk all (A) IQ+1 [4]-15, Computer Hacking (H) IQ [4]-14, or Carousing (E) HT+1 [2]-12, or Sex Appeal (A) HT [2]-11

Secondary Skills: Beam Weapons (Pistol) (E) DX [1]-14; Computer Operation (E) IQ+1 [2]-15; ● Either Brawling (E) DX+1 [2]-15 or Karate (H) DX-1 [2]-13; ● Either Judo (H) DX-1 [2]-13 or Wrestling (A) DX [2]-14; ● Choose five from Beam Weapons (Rifle) (E) DX [1]-14, Climbing (A) DX-1 [1]-13, Escape or Sleight of Hand (H) DX-2 [1]-12, Current Affairs (Headline News or Politics) or Savoir-Faire (High Society, Mafia, Military)2,all (E) IQ+2 [4]-16 (E) IQ [1]-14, Camouflage1, Electrician, Electronics Operation (Comms, Security, Sensors, Surveillance), Explosives (Demolition), Mechanic (Any), Photography, Research, Smuggling, Speed-Reading, Streetwise2 or Traps all (A) IQ-1 [1]-13, Computer Hacking, Engineer (Civil or Starship), Expert Skill (Conspiracy Theory or Military Science) all (H) IQ-2 [1]-12, Swimming (E) HT [1]-11, Running (A) HT-1 [1]-10, Scrounging (E) Per [1]-15, Body Language2, Lip-Reading both (A) Per-1 [1]-14, Detect Lies (H) Per-2 [1]-13

Background Skills: Divide 2 points among Pilot (Contragravity or Starship) both (A) DX-1 [1]-13 or Navigation (Hyperspace) (A) IQ-1 [1]-13, or improve one of the above by one level to [2] for +1 point; Vacc Suit (A) DX-1 [1]-13, and 20 points chosen from a background lens.

Notes: Duty is required if the character has Intelligence Rank. Zeroed and Social Stigma are mutually incompatible.
1: If you chose Craftiness, add +2 to this skill.
2: If you chose Impersonator, add +2 to this skill.
3: +2 from either Craftiness or Impersonator

[Mailanka]

Alright, now broken out for one line per trait:

Spy 250 points

Attributes:
ST 10 [0]
DX 14 [80]
IQ 14 [80]
HT 11 [10]

Secondary Characteristics:
Damage 1d-2/1d
BL 20 lbs
HP 10 [0]
Will 14 [0]
Per 15 [5]
FP 11 [0]
Basic Speed 6.00 [-5]
Basic Move 6 [0]

Advantages:
Craftiness +2 [10] or Impersonator +2 [10]
Luck [15]
Choose a total of 25 points from the following:

DX +1 [20]
IQ +1 [20]
Per +1 to +3 [5/level]
Absolute Timing [2]
Acute Senses (Any) [2/level]
Ally (Robot, 50%, almost all the time) [9]
Appearance (Attractive or Beautiful) [4 or 12]
Bug Sweeper [1]
Cat Fall [10]
Combat Reflexes [15]
Compact Frame [1]
Contact Group (Any, skill 12, 15 or 18, 9 or less) [5, 10, 15]
Craftiness +1 to +4 [5/level]
Cultural Adaptability [10]
Cultural Familiarity (Any) [1]
Danger Sense [15]
Daredevil [15]
either Eidetic Memory or Photographic Memory [5 or 10]
Flexibility [5]
Gizmos 1-3 [5/level]
High Heeled Heroine [1]
High Manual Dexterity +1 to +4 [5/level]
Honest Face [1]
Impersonator +1 to +4 [5/level]
Intelligence Rank 1-4 [5/level]
Language [6]
Night Vision 1-9 [1/level]
Perfect Balance [15]
Signature Gear [Varies]
Security Clearance [5-15]
Serendipity 1-2 [15/level]
Voice [10]
Wild Talent 1 [20]
Zeroed [10]
improve Luck [15] to Extraordinary Luck [30] for 15 points

Disadvantages:
Choose -15 from

Code of Honor (Professional) [-5]
Compulsive Behavior (Thrill-Seeking) [-5*]
Curious [-5*]
Duty to Intelligence Agency* (9 or less to 15 or less, Extremely hazardous) [-10, -15,-20]
Fanaticism (Faction) [-15]
Obsession (Uncover particular secret or bring down particular organization/enemy) [-5]
Overconfidence [-5*]
Secret (“Is a spy”, “Double Agent” or Past crimes) [-10 to -20]
Sense of Duty (Team or Faction) [-5 or -10]
Workaholic [-5]

Choose another -30 points from the above or from

ST -1 [-10]
HP -1 to -3 [-2/level]
Alcoholism [-15]
Callous [-5]
Impulsiveness [-10*]
Jealousy [-10]
Insomniac [-10 to -15]
Loner [-5*]
Nightmares [-5*]
Pacifism (Cannot harm innocents) [-10]
Paranoia [-10]
Post-Combat Shakes [-5*]
Signature Gear [varies]
Signature Spaceship [varies]
Skinny [-5]
Social Stigma (Criminal Record)
Stubbornness [-5]
Trademark [-5 to -15]
Trickster [-15*]

Primary Skills:
Intelligence Analysis (H) IQ+1 [8]-15
Observation (A) Per+1 [4]-16
Search (A) Per+1 [4]-16
Stealth DX+2* [8]-16
Choose four of

Filch (A) DX+1 [4]-15
Pickpocket (H) DX [4]-14
Forced Entry (E) DX+2 [4]-16
Acting (A) IQ+3* [4]-17
Disguise (A) IQ+3* [4]-17
Electronics Operation (Communications, Security, Sensors, or Surveillance) (A) IQ+1 [4]-15 Holdout* (A) IQ+1 [4]-15
Shadowing* (A) IQ+1 [4]-15
Fast-Talk (A) IQ+1 [4]-15
Computer Hacking (H) IQ [4]-14
Carousing (E) HT+1 [2]-12
Sex Appeal (A) HT [2]-11

Secondary Skills:
Beam Weapons (Pistol) (E) DX [1]-14
Computer Operation (E) IQ+1 [2]-15
Either Brawling (E) DX+1 [2]-15 or Karate (H) DX-1 [2]-13
Either Judo (H) DX-1 [2]-13 or Wrestling (A) DX [2]-14
Choose five of

Beam Weapons (Rifle) (E) DX [1]-14
Climbing (A) DX-1 [1]-13
Escape (H) DX-2 [1]-12
Sleight of Hand (H) DX-2 [1]-12
Camouflage (E) IQ [1]-14
Current Affairs (Headline News or Politics) (E) IQ [1]-14
Savoir-Faire (High Society, Mafia, Military)* (E) IQ [1]-14
Electrician (A) IQ-1 [1]-13
Electronics Operation (Comms, Security, Sensors, Surveillance) (A) IQ-1 [1]-13
Explosives (Demolition) (A) IQ-1 [1]-13
Mechanic (Any) (A) IQ-1 [1]-13
Photography (A) IQ-1 [1]-13
Research (A) IQ-1 [1]-13
Smuggling(A) IQ-1 [1]-13
Speed-Reading (A) IQ-1 [1]-13
Streetwise* (A) IQ-1 [1]-13
Traps (A) IQ-1 [1]-13
Computer Hacking (H) IQ-2 [1]-12
Engineer (Civil or Starship) (H) IQ-2 [1]-12
Expert Skill (Conspiracy Theory or Military Science) (H) IQ-2 [1]-12, Swimming (E) HT [1]-11
Running (A) HT-1 [1]-10
Scrounging (E) Per [1]-15
Body Language* Per-1 [1]-14
Lip-Reading (A) Per-1 [1]-14
Detect Lies (H) Per-2 [1]-13

Background Skills:
Divide 2 points among

Pilot (Contragravity or Starship) both (A) DX-1 [1]-13
Navigation (Hyperspace) (A) IQ-1 [1]-13,
or improve one of the above by one level to [2] for +1 point;

Vacc Suit (A) DX-1 [1]-13
20 points chosen from a background lens.

Notes: Duty is required if the character has Intelligence Rank. Zeroed and Social Stigma are mutually incompatible.
1: If you chose Craftiness, add +2 to this skill.
2: If you chose Impersonator, add +2 to this skill.
3: +2 from either Craftiness or Impersonator

It seems clear I've lost my superscripts, so I apologize for that. Some people ask "Why can this not be done?" Or show examples that are very simple and straight forward. I wanted to see (and to show) what both versions actually look like, side by side, to get a real comparison. Is it really worth the white space and ink to do the latter over the former? That's not rhetorical, but a genuine question.

[Myrion]

It absolutely is. I haven't managed to read through a single template in its entirety that was formatted in the first style.

That said, I completely understand SJGames decision. I wonder if it would be possible to make the templates in the second style available as a digital add-on (a .txt file, say) to purchased books. If it isn't too much effort, it would be awesome!

[Joseph Paul]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

It seems clear I've lost my superscripts, so I apologize for that. Some people ask "Why can this not be done?" Or show examples that are very simple and straight forward. I wanted to see (and to show) what both versions actually look like, side by side, to get a real comparison. Is it really worth the white space and ink to do the latter over the former? That's not rhetorical, but a genuine question.

Is it worth it in regards to what? My original intent was to ask for advice for a personal project for my personal gaming. Obviously for my own purposes I think it is worth investigating and that it would make things easier for people I play with as well as myself as chief creator of a large setting. It would hinge on just how much can I automate and can I pull from physical copies with OCR and get a low incidence of mistakes. Typing it by hand...maybe.

If you are asking about that tongue in cheek side quest - the Big Book of Templates - no. SJG has made it clear that they have good and sufficient reason to produce templates in the format they have chosen and they won't spend resources to do it any other way.

Your specific objection to white space can be partially ameliorated by going to two columns for actual A/D/S entries which the forum does not do a good job of formatting.

Header Line. Pick two skills

Column 1 _______________________Column 2
Entry 1 _________________________Entry 4
Entry 2 _________________________Entry 5
Entry 3 _________________________Entry 6