Telekinesis Clarification

[Opodiphthera eucalypti]

I have two related questions (and several sub-questions) concerning Telekinesis.

Can TK be used through opaque objects to affect things the user cannot see?

As an example, could a TK user on one the locked side of a door manipulate the handle/lock on the opposite side? Because of the way doors are laid out he would have a very good idea of where the handle was, but he wouldn't be able to actually see it.

Related to this, could you randomly throw TK punches or grab at things randomly in an out-of-sight hex?

How much can TK "feel" at a distance, if at all?

My main concern is that I want to avoid it becoming a cheap and fast version of Clairsentience. At the same time there are problems that arise from not being able to feel the thing you are manipulating, as per the Numb disadvantage but also in other scenarios.

• If you are grappling someone with TK, but cannot see them, could you tell if they had broken free?
• If you look at an object, then pick it up, then close your eyes, could you "feel" when you're trying to move the object through an obstacle?
• Could one's TK do something that requires working by touch (such as manipulating lockpicks in the dark/behind your back)?
• If you randomly threw blind TK punches, would you know when one of them landed?
• With the door handle example above, could you use TK to "feel around" for the handle rather than using your best guess?

[Empada]

I had similar questions about this some time ago. didn't ask here, but here go what I think about the matter.

Originally Posted by Opodiphthera eucalypti

I have two related questions (and several sub-questions) concerning Telekinesis.

Can TK be used through opaque objects to affect things the user cannot see?

I think it would be setting specific, so, you choose.

Originally Posted by Opodiphthera eucalypti

As an example, could a TK user on one the locked side of a door manipulate the handle/lock on the opposite side? Because of the way doors are laid out he would have a very good idea of where the handle was, but he wouldn't be able to actually see it.

Related to this, could you randomly throw TK punches or grab at things randomly in an out-of-sight hex?

if your setting is very specific about only be able to work TK on objects you see, then no. but if it is not that specific I would allow it. I would allow random punches too, but grab is another issue. the person knows there is and object to be grabed? I like the exemple of a fridge. everybody knows a fridge, but not what is inside. "I want to grab the ketchup" is a little to much, but "I want to make some noise inside, pushing whatever is inside up" seems ok to me.

Originally Posted by Opodiphthera eucalypti

How much can TK "feel" at a distance, if at all?

My main concern is that I want to avoid it becoming a cheap and fast version of Clairsentience. At the same time there are problems that arise from not being able to feel the thing you are manipulating, as per the Numb disadvantage but also in other scenarios.

I don't think you have a TK touch sense, but maybe you can buy that as an advantage (no idea about costs).
but for me, for TK work, the PC should know or have an idea of what is inside or what he wants to do. I would allow him to drive a car (with some penaltys, specially in the beginning, to start and put it in motion. must see the car), open a door from the other side if is a common handler, shake inside the fridge.

Originally Posted by Opodiphthera eucalypti

• [1]If you are grappling someone with TK, but cannot see them, could you tell if they had broken free?
  [2]If you look at an object, then pick it up, then close your eyes, could you "feel" when you're trying to move the object through an obstacle?
  [3]Could one's TK do something that requires working by touch (such as manipulating lockpicks in the dark/behind your back)?
  [4]If you randomly threw blind TK punches, would you know when one of them landed?
  [5]With the door handle example above, could you use TK to "feel around" for the handle rather than using your best guess?

1 and 2. I would say: mostly yes, in the sense you know when you are using your force carring an object. if you are carring a bag with your eyes closed, and the content of the bag falls off for some reason, you know you are using less force to suspend the bag from the ground, you just don't know why.


3. TK gives some bonus for this kind of work, work without seeing give penaltys, I would give behind you back a penalty too. add this together and use the final result as a modifier.

4. IMO, as 1 and 2, I would say yes, but you don't know what you hit.

5. that I would use a "TK touch sense" advantage, as I said above.


now is wait for other opinios on the subject, i'm really interested in it.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Opodiphthera eucalypti

I have two related questions (and several sub-questions) concerning Telekinesis.

Can TK be used through opaque objects to affect things the user cannot see?

As an example, could a TK user on one the locked side of a door manipulate the handle/lock on the opposite side? Because of the way doors are laid out he would have a very good idea of where the handle was, but he wouldn't be able to actually see it.

Related to this, could you randomly throw TK punches or grab at things randomly in an out-of-sight hex?

How much can TK "feel" at a distance, if at all?

My main concern is that I want to avoid it becoming a cheap and fast version of Clairsentience. At the same time there are problems that arise from not being able to feel the thing you are manipulating, as per the Numb disadvantage but also in other scenarios.

• If you are grappling someone with TK, but cannot see them, could you tell if they had broken free?
• If you look at an object, then pick it up, then close your eyes, could you "feel" when you're trying to move the object through an obstacle?
• Could one's TK do something that requires working by touch (such as manipulating lockpicks in the dark/behind your back)?
• If you randomly threw blind TK punches, would you know when one of them landed?
• With the door handle example above, could you use TK to "feel around" for the handle rather than using your best guess?

This old thread should be of some help, particularly Kromm's posts (#2 and #13).
The main takeaways:
1. Telekinesis is not (by default) blocked by things between you and the subject, but you generally need to be able to see (or sense, using something equivalent to vision) the subject. Some uses can be done as though you were operating blind, at the appropriate penalty (commonsense or your GM should determine these).
2. Telekinesis does not include tactile feedback [Note though, that proprioceptive awareness of remote "hands" is usually assumed]. This is connected with the need to see the subject. If you cannot "see" what you're doing, you'll either be at a penalty, or just unable to do it at all. As discussed in the above thread, Clairsentience is a big help for remote use of TK.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Opodiphthera eucalypti

I have two related questions (and several sub-questions) concerning Telekinesis.

Can TK be used through opaque objects to affect things the user cannot see?

As an example, could a TK user on one the locked side of a door manipulate the handle/lock on the opposite side? Because of the way doors are laid out he would have a very good idea of where the handle was, but he wouldn't be able to actually see it.

I get the impression it probably can, much like a Malediction can.

In either case I like the idea of applying a -5 to stuff you can't see, similar to spellcasting, even though I'm not sure if that's RAW.

SORCERY uses Malediction to emulate "Regular Spells" so it just feels right.

T106 "can target any victim you can see or otherwise clearly perceive" is actually more limited than regular spells operate though (they don't require clear perception at all, just -5 if you can't see them).

So something like "Innate Attack (Malediction: my arch-nemesis who is hiding behind one of the twenty mirrors in this room, but I'm not sure where") doesn't really work, you actually need to build "Detect" paired with innate attack to emulate how GURPS Magic regular spells are able to attack foes you can't clearly perceive locations of.

If you lack Detect or can't rely on other stuff like hearing/strategy to guess his location, I think the solution would be to have TK w/ Area Effect and "target the entire hex" at +4 to hit. Per P100 you can take AE on TK.

Essentially "I have no idea how many items are behind this door, or specifically where those items are located, but lift up as many as I am capable of lifting".

This works fine so long as your TK has to ST to lift everything.

I guess you could also "punch everything" in same way

Originally Posted by Opodiphthera eucalypti

Related to this, could you randomly throw TK punches or grab at things randomly in an out-of-sight hex?

I guess but since it's a melee attack, it'd probably suffer the -5 penalty for "Wild Swing"?

That'd be pretty generous since you normally use Wild Swing attacks beyond reach 1 with melee weapons, even though you can "fire blind" with ranged attacks at -10 (I don't really see why you couldn't allow that with reach 2-4 melee or jets...)

Originally Posted by Opodiphthera eucalypti

How much can TK "feel" at a distance, if at all?

My main concern is that I want to avoid it becoming a cheap and fast version of Clairsentience. At the same time there are problems that arise from not being able to feel the thing you are manipulating, as per the Numb disadvantage but also in other scenarios.

• If you are grappling someone with TK, but cannot see them, could you tell if they had broken free?
• If you look at an object, then pick it up, then close your eyes, could you "feel" when you're trying to move the object through an obstacle?
• Could one's TK do something that requires working by touch (such as manipulating lockpicks in the dark/behind your back)?
• If you randomly threw blind TK punches, would you know when one of them landed?
• With the door handle example above, could you use TK to "feel around" for the handle rather than using your best guess?

I imagine DX has an identical sense of touch buy I like the idea of having Weak Grip or Numb applying to TK as a limitation.

[kirbwarrior]

The weird thing is that TK in no book I've seen touches upon Numb penalties to use, implying that you can feel what you are manipulating, at least enough that you don't get penalized for lack of sense. I've run it allowing a general sense of feel with Clairsentience (Touch Only, Link) to actually know what you are touching and Sensitive Touch (TK Only +0%) to get the benefits of that trait. Without either and with something you can't see, you are both working blind (with whatever applicable modifiers) and you don't necessarily know what you are affecting.

I could also see ruling it that if you can see what you are doing, you have no penalties, but if you can't you get both Blind and Numb penalties for use (you have to 'see' to 'touch').

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

The weird thing is that TK in no book I've seen touches upon Numb penalties to use, implying that you can feel what you are manipulating, at least enough that you don't get penalized for lack of sense.

Yeah. It also says nothing about the conveyance of sensation by the use of the ability. I've always kinda figured that maybe people were assuming that the sense of "touch" came automatically because they associated it with "'as if'+a pair of hands'"? *shrug*

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

The weird thing is that TK in no book I've seen touches upon Numb penalties to use, implying that you can feel what you are manipulating, at least enough that you don't get penalized for lack of sense. I've run it allowing a general sense of feel with Clairsentience (Touch Only, Link) to actually know what you are touching and Sensitive Touch (TK Only +0%) to get the benefits of that trait. Without either and with something you can't see, you are both working blind (with whatever applicable modifiers) and you don't necessarily know what you are affecting.

I could also see ruling it that if you can see what you are doing, you have no penalties, but if you can't you get both Blind and Numb penalties for use (you have to 'see' to 'touch').

Please remember that the GURPS advantage of Telekinesis is only a part of what most people consider telekinesis to be. I would use something like Tactile Imaging from Powers: Enhanced Senses. Though I'd probably make this a lesser form. Perhaps adding this as a +20% advantage to the telekinesis advantage.

[Anaraxes]

The base TK ability doesn't include any sort of extrasensory perception. It's not blocked by intervening objects, but that doesn't mean a whole lot if you can't tell exactly what's on the other side of the door and where it is. (Even if you know where some object has to be, like the door handle on the other side of this one, that's still different from being able to actually grasp. Imagine trying to pick up something with your real hands if you were not only blind, but didn't have the proprioception and kinesthetic feedback to know where your hand even is. The problem isn't just knowing where the doorknob is; it's knowing where your hand is, and seeing the relationship between the two to make them converge to the same location.)

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Imagine trying to pick up something with your real hands if you were not only blind, but didn't have the proprioception and kinesthetic feedback to know where your hand even is

I guess the question is whether or not that's the case, wouldn't they mention DX penalties if so?

[Anders]

A hand without proprioception would be fairly useless. Even sight wouldn't be too much help, unless you had a lot of practice. If TK is to be useful, there needs to be some kind of feedback.