Strength (ST) in high TL settings - Pricing?

[Anthony]

Part of the problem with ST in high/ultra tech is that UT weapons and armor tend to be designed with a somewhat average ST in mind. A stronger person can carry bigger weapons and wear heavier armor, but not if those things aren't on the equipment table.

[newton]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Part of the problem with ST in high/ultra tech is that UT weapons and armor tend to be designed with a somewhat average ST in mind. A stronger person can carry bigger weapons and wear heavier armor, but not if those things aren't on the equipment table.

well except the hypersense rocket weapons, but that’s solved by mechanisation. ultra tech equipment for super humans would be a cool thing to see because supersoldiers and super strong aliens are frequent in sci fi.

[ErhnamDJ]

Originally Posted by Rupert

not against armour, they're not.
Most combat in my games is not military vs military, so Shaped charges and HEMP aren't common, and hit points are useful.

Does that mean the characters aren't wearing military armor? That kind of makes HP useless again (which has been my experience in ~TL10 cyberpunk games: my character gets hit, his body explodes).

It doesn't have to be the same as in order for ST to not be over-priced, especially as ST is arguably under-priced at low TLs.

Probably, but because the melee damage table is wack.

I think the only important thing that's going on here is that ST is worth different amounts in different types of high TL games in a way that doesn't happen in low TL games.

Some TL 10 games are very different from other TL 10 games. Sometimes ST is more useful and sometimes it's less useful. Whereas at low TL games, it's always about the same. ST 15 is worth just about the same thing in one TL 3 game as in another (unless it's a romance game or whatever, but we're talking about normal adventuring contexts here).

There's no such thing as a normal adventuring context at TL 10. That could be many different things. In some of those contexts, ST is great, and in others it's trash, and there's a huge gulf in between where it's of varying levels of utility.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

Does that mean the characters aren't wearing military armor? That kind of makes HP useless again (which has been my experience in ~TL10 cyberpunk games: my character gets hit, his body explodes).

Light LC3 armour includes nanoweave (DR18/6* good vs piercing and slashing attacks) and ablative nanoplas (36/6*, strong vs lasers). The former will protect against all normal conventional pistols and shotguns, and all but magnum ETC pistols, and make gauss pistols do about half their normal damage. The latter gives protection against about 5d of laser attacks before becoming next to worthless. So LC3 armour protects fairly well against LC3 weapons, and that makes having a good amount of HP to soak up 'leaks' is useful, just as it is at low TLs. If your cyberpunk games had people routinely having much better guns than this (i.e. lower LC weapons) without better armour to match, well it's not surprising that there was a tendency to pink mist with an imbalance in favour of offence over defence.

[AlexanderHowl]

In my experience, corporate security tends to use military grade weaponry and cyberpunk heroes tend to return the favor.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

In my experience, corporate security tends to use military grade weaponry and cyberpunk heroes tend to return the favor.

Either that or they only bring gear they can smuggle or quickly ditch. Body armor is very difficult to smuggle, because it has to cover so many places, is hard to quickly put on after you pull it out of concealment, and it tends to be big and bulky.


I find a lot of players ignore many subtleties of Legality class, especially in exotic settings. Most of the time, it feels like a headache and not that fun.

[AlexanderHowl]

In general though, most cyberpunk heroes will smartly run the other way that deal with corporate security wearing Commando Battlesuits. In either indicates that the people are guarding something above the pay grade of the heroes or that the corporation is really paranoid.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by naloth

Not really. Deprived of your vibroknife that ST30 has the same penetration as ST10 on that battlesuit -> none. Given gear, ST10 can be arguably as effective for 200 less points that can be spent on other things.

Exactly. It's the equipment that's making ST unimportant in your case, just as it's the equipment allowing it to matter in mine. Heck, tech levels are all about what equipment is available.

Isn't that the paradigm you accused me of projecting? Besides, you're not making an apples and apples comparison. List what each TL has in their pack and you'll see that higher TLs get more utility for the same weight even against other soldiers.

And have more other stuff to carry. That trend might reverse in the future, but the historical trend has been every upwards.

Most importantly, what the average soldier carries doesn't reflect what PCs would be likely to carry. Most of the Star Trek (say ToS) crew seems to go on "away" missions with little more than a phone, t-shirt, and pistol. Shadowrunners tend to outfit for urban adventuring. Military specialists will choose based on the op.

Well, if we're talking PCs, mine go with a certain minimum of gear, and unless they have to leave their armour and rifles behind (i.e. they're pretending to be civilised), that load will run to at least 60 pounds, and they really like to be in no more than light encumbrance (otherwise the loss of movement and dodge stings) but will accept medium for a marching/tramping load if they have to, so that needs ST13+ just for the combat load, more for a good loadout (one with more spare ammo, a full range of electronics, grenades, spare weapons, etc. - a soldiers' loadout rather than an armed thugs'), and that means ST14+. Decent armour eats up nearly 40 pounds if it's not powered, and you can add another 20 pounds for vacuum operations.

Now, if they have access to powered armour, the whole thing becomes a lot easier, mainly because they usually simply don't have all the stuff they'd like to be carrying (though a semi-portable energy weapon or heavy chaingun and ammo eats up a good chunk of an ST25 character's basic load, and if a semi-portable plasma gun is in the loadout you want ST12+ to be able to use it in a commando suit). Their goal in powered armour is to stay unencumbered whilst carrying everything they can think of a possible use for. I find myself having to point out that even in powered armour bulk will matter after a certain point.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Exactly. It's the equipment that's making ST unimportant in your case, just as it's the equipment allowing it to matter in mine. Heck, tech levels are all about what equipment is available.

yes..... and the whole point is that TL displaces the importance of ST making the components less valuable.

I don't think anything anyone is defending the damage component of ST. HP is always useful, but it's certainly not the bulk of the cost.

Lifting ST has many uses, but I certainly haven't played in many games over 30 years where it's been more useful at high TLs than lower TLs. My low TL characters were less likely to have ways to offload, acquire, or replace items as necessary so they had to carry with them. Naturally certain campaigns (genres) may be different, but that's the general trend. For that matter, encumbrance is usually tracked down to the last ration in Dungeon Fantasy, but the "I have a breakfast bar in my jacket" is usually a "sure, whatever" in a modern or high TL game.

Well, if we're talking PCs, mine go with a certain minimum of gear, and unless they have to leave their armour and rifles behind (i.e. they're pretending to be civilised), that load will run to at least 60 pounds, and they really like to be in no more than light encumbrance (otherwise the loss of movement and dodge stings) but will accept medium for a marching/tramping load if they have to, so that needs ST13+ just for the combat load, more for a good loadout (one with more spare ammo, a full range of electronics, grenades, spare weapons, etc. - a soldiers' loadout rather than an armed thugs'), and that means ST14+. Decent armour eats up nearly 40 pounds if it's not powered, and you can add another 20 pounds for vacuum operations.

It matters if you're playing something more like Star Trek, Star Wars, or Star Frontiers. Do they wander into a bar (or other social gathering) with 60 lbs of gear? It sounds like "Dungeon Fantasy in Space!" if they wander from one encounter to another with a full pack, armor, and weapons.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by naloth

It matters if you're playing something more like Star Trek, Star Wars, or Star Frontiers. Do they wander into a bar (or other social gathering) with 60 lbs of gear? It sounds like "Dungeon Fantasy in Space!" if they wander from one encounter to another with a full pack, armor, and weapons.

They do many things. Sometimes they trek through wilderness, with only themselves and what they can carry available (and thus find high ST useful). Sometimes they do everything a sort walk or flight from their spaceship, and need only carry just what they need for the job (and even so find high ST lets them bring more capable gear, which is often handy - if nothing else it cuts down to the trips to and from the ship). Sometimes they are doing social stuff and ST is no more or less important than it is at low TLs (which can mean 'not at all' or can mean 'the strongest guy gets to tie the other side into knots').

Also, you say "It sounds like Dungeon Fantasy in Space!" as if that is 1) not a valid style of play, and 2) as if people don't play games that are like that.

EDIT: And my recollection of Star Frontiers games from back in the day was that encumbrance wasn't a huge issue because there wasn't that much gear in the game to carry. Compare with Traveller where Strength was hugely useful because the encumbrance rules were really ungenerous (and in many Traveller games because people weren't heavily armed and armoured and thus good old fashioned beating and grappling was common and viable, and there weren't many other non-lethal options).