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Old 06-22-2019, 05:24 PM   #21
DanHoward
 
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Were the rules for bronze weapons ever updated?

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
My understanding was that it takes more labor to make a bronze sword, thanks to non-ferrous alloys needing work-hardening and hand forging of edges (as opposed to just heat/quench/grind). It's not just the materials that are more expensive, but the skilled labor as well.
Not really. Many iron objects can't be cold worked so there is more heating involved in working iron than there is in annealing work-hardened bronze. Grinding might be easy today but it wasn't in the past. Grinding an edge was at least as labour intensive as hand-forging an edge. IMO it is wash. Simplest solution is to base the cost on raw materials.
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Old 06-22-2019, 06:18 PM   #22
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Were the rules for bronze weapons ever updated?

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Not really. Many iron objects can't be cold worked so there is more heating involved in working iron than there is in annealing work-hardened bronze. Grinding might be easy today but it wasn't in the past. Grinding an edge was at least as labour intensive as hand-forging an edge. IMO it is wash. Simplest solution is to base the cost on raw materials.
Also, grinding wastes metal. You wanted to grind as little as possible. Besides, grinding takes skill - aside from the risk of grinding away too much metal, if you aren't careful you can overheat the steel and start burning out the carbon and changing the structure, which will ruin that part of the weapon.
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Old 06-22-2019, 06:53 PM   #23
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Were the rules for bronze weapons ever updated?

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I think 1 G$ to 1 L was my rule of thumb. Bronze objects tend to be more expensive, except for swords which are already kind of pricey in the Basic Set. I decided that the GURPS starting wealth rules underestimated how much stuff people had relative to their incomes: the Bronze Age and Iron Age were times when one everyday garment could cost a month's income for a family. And my desire to give historically plausible prices was tempered by my knowledge that I was the only one in the group who cared about this stuff.
Hmmm. As a slightly simpler version of Polydamas' numbers, I might go for +3 CF for most bronze weapons, +1 CF for long knives, and +0 CF for shortswords and khopeshs. And no change in effectiveness relative to iron.
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Old 06-22-2019, 07:46 PM   #24
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Were the rules for bronze weapons ever updated?

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Also, grinding wastes metal. You wanted to grind as little as possible. Besides, grinding takes skill - aside from the risk of grinding away too much metal, if you aren't careful you can overheat the steel and start burning out the carbon and changing the structure, which will ruin that part of the weapon.
You also need to be able to consistently produce steel as harder than the steel you're grinding. And consistently producing hard steel seems to have been a big issue.
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Old 06-22-2019, 08:02 PM   #25
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Were the rules for bronze weapons ever updated?

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You also need to be able to consistently produce steel as harder than the steel you're grinding.
Why is that? I'm no smith, but I routinely sharpen steel knives not with super-hard steel files, but with rocks. The waterstone style are quite soft (as rocks go). Sandstone seems to be a popular material for making grinding stones intended to work on steel, even in modern times. It's perfectly okay for the grinding stone/wheel to be consumable. (It's not like a smithy isn't going through a much larger weight and volume of other consumables to do its work.)
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Old 06-22-2019, 08:44 PM   #26
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Were the rules for bronze weapons ever updated?

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You also need to be able to consistently produce steel as harder than the steel you're grinding. And consistently producing hard steel seems to have been a big issue.
No you don't. If you were to use a file, then yes this is the case. However, grindstones are a thing, and they are not harder than the steel they are used to grind. The stone wears faster than the steel, but it still removes metal.
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Old 06-23-2019, 12:04 AM   #27
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Were the rules for bronze weapons ever updated?

Guys, I'm not sure why I forgot grindstones.
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