[Low-Tech] Were the rules for bronze weapons ever updated?

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Treat bronze blades the same as ferrous blades except that price is 4x and restrict them to cheap and good quality.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

In my Bronze Age Setting bronze weapons were just more expensive, no other effect. I worked out one rule of thumb for knives and swords, and another for hafted weapons based on the setting''s prices for copper and tin. The fact that some weapons are hard to make out of bronze is covered by the Thrusting Broadsword and Short Cutting Rapier being TL 2-4 (a few cultures had Craft Secret perks for making them).

Very curious to know Polydamas' rule of thumb. I'm not sure using Low-Tech's +3 CF for armor makes a ton of sense for weapons, because swords especially are likely to have a different ratio of materials to labor cost.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Very curious to know Polydamas' rule of thumb. I'm not sure using Low-Tech's +3 CF for armor makes a ton of sense for weapons, because swords especially are likely to have a different ratio of materials to labor cost.

IMO it isn't worth worrying about. Just use one standard cost multiplier for all bronze objects.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Very curious to know Polydamas' rule of thumb. I'm not sure using Low-Tech's +3 CF for armor makes a ton of sense for weapons, because swords especially are likely to have a different ratio of materials to labor cost.

The most important thing to know is that I ignored the arbitrary values in the Basic Set and relied on real historical prices (like in High Tech) + making assumptions and extrapolating from them (like in Low Tech; the assumptions sometimes coincided with numbers in the Basic Set). Based on that, I decided that a shortsword would cost far more than its weight in bronze, and more than we know swords cost in other cultures, if I used a flat multiplier.

Originally Posted by Bronze-Age Setting Equipment List

Prices are listed in L, which can be read as a qua of barley. Average starting wealth is 1500 L. A shekel of bronze (1/60 pound) is worth 3 L and is about the same weight as four Canadian pennies. Simple bronze objects are worth about 200 L per lb. A shekel of silver is worth 300 L; a carat is worth 12.5 L but is much too small to use for money.

...

Weapons and Armour

Bronze weapons can be Cheap, Good, or Fine quality. A cheap weapon is probably copper and simply made; a fine weapon is skillfully made using a carefully selected alloy.

Hatchets, javelins, spears, knives (from Tiny Knives to Large Knives), slings, and bows are the most common weapons. Round maces, heavier axes, stout sticks of various lengths and weights, and swords are sometimes used. A set of specific weapons follows:

A sturdy pole usable in combat as any of the sticks in the Basic Set or MA costs 5 L (if it can only strike at reach C or 1) or 10 L (if longer). These include the Short Baton (a sturdy stick of even thickness 9-18” long, used with Shortsword or Knife skill), the Baton (a sturdy stick of even thickness 18-24” long, used with Shortsword skill), the Light Club (a heavy stick of even thickness used with Broadsword skill), the Knobbed Club (a heavy stick weighted towards one end eg. a baseball bat, used with Axe/Mace skill), the Short Staff (a thinner Light Club, used with Smallsword skill), the Jo (a heavy stick of even thickness about 4' or 5' long used with Staff or Two-Handed Sword skill), the
Quarterstaff (a heavy stick of even thickness about 6' long used with Staff or Two-Handed Sword skill), and the Long Staff (a heavy stick of even thickness about 8' long, used with Staff skill).

The price of a bronze knife, spear, or axe in L is four times its cost in GURPS$. The “Dagger” has been renamed “Tiny Knife” to better give the impression that its not a large weapon, but the smallest knife you would reasonably use in combat.

Shortsword (TL 1): Sudrats are famous for their straight swords, although most Sudrat men make do with a knife of some kind. 400 L

Hatchet (TL 1): A bronze head on a wooden haft. Stone axes (TL 0) are 25% cost but break as if cheap, and few remember the art of making them.

Small Round Mace (TL 0): A stone ball on a wooden haft. Used with Axe/Mace skill, it does sw+1 cr, reach 1, parry 0, Min ST 10. Used with Thrown Weapon (Axe/Mace) it does sw+1 cr, Acc 1, Range Stx1/STx1.5, RoF 1, Shots T(1), ST 10, Bulk -3. 25 L, 3 lbs

Short Spear (TL 1): A short-hafted spear with a broad head suitable for slashing. Used one-handed with Spear skill, it does th+1 imp, reach 1, parry 0, ST 6. It gets +1 to damage with a Tip Slash (MA p. 113). 120 L, 2 lbs

Heavy Spear (TL 1): A spear with a huge, broad head. Used two-handed with Spear skill, it does thr+4, reach 2, 3*, parry 0U, 6 lbs, ST 11. It gets +1 to damage with a Tip Slash (MA p. 113). 300 L, 6 lbs.

Long Knife (TL 1): A big knife or short sword 12-18” long. Long knives cannot be made from stone. Used with Knife or Shortsword skill, it does sw-1 cut, reach 1, or th+0 imp, reach C, 1; parry 0; Min ST 7. 300 L, 1.5 lbs

Khopesh (TL 1): A forward-curving sword used by lowlanders. Used with shortsword skill, it does sw+0 cut, reach 1, or th-2 imp, reach 1; parry 0; Min ST 8. 350 L, 2 lbs

Small Buckler (TL 1):A round shield roughly 18-24” in diameter made of wood and leather. Used with Shield (Buckler) skill. 8 lbs, 80 L

Medium Buckler (TL 1): A round shield roughly 24-36” in diameter made of wood and leather. Used with Shield (Buckler) skill. 15 lbs, 150 L

Normal shields are made of leather-covered wood, or many layers of leather. A small shield weighs 8 lbs, has DR 2 and 16 HP, and costs 80 L; a medium shield weighs 15 lbs, has DR 2 and 20 HP, and costs 150 L. Large shields are mostly used by lowlander infantry, and weigh 25 lbs with DR 2 and 23 HP.

[Anaraxes]

My understanding was that it takes more labor to make a bronze sword, thanks to non-ferrous alloys needing work-hardening and hand forging of edges (as opposed to just heat/quench/grind). It's not just the materials that are more expensive, but the skilled labor as well.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

The most important thing to know is that I ignored the arbitrary values in the Basic Set and relied on real historical prices (like in High Tech) + making assumptions and extrapolating from them (like in Low Tech; the assumptions sometimes coincided with numbers in the Basic Set). Based on that, I decided that a shortsword would cost far more than its weight in bronze, and more than we know swords cost in other cultures, if I used a flat multiplier.

What prices did you use for armor? And how much barley is a qua?

[Polydamas]

1 QA = 1 liter, 60 shekels = 1 MA.NA (pound) = 1/3600 talent. I think I used armour prices from Low Tech or from my playtest draft of Low Tech. We don't have prices for things like that before the high middle ages, but we do have lots of price data for everyday objects, including weapons, from the Bronze Age and the early Iron Age.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

My understanding was that it takes more labor to make a bronze sword, thanks to non-ferrous alloys needing work-hardening and hand forging of edges (as opposed to just heat/quench/grind). It's not just the materials that are more expensive, but the skilled labor as well.

Heat quenching only works if you have enough carbon in the steel. Mild steel with low carbon content gains almost nothing from quenching. From what I know, the ancient Kelts did not using quenching for most of their swords. Helmut Koll provides data that indicates around 40% of the sword Plenier sampled were of soft iron, while 60% contained some steel. He notes however, that even the 60% that contain harder steel are not pattern-welded(twisted and folded over each other), but built up by piling and ******ing.

What I do is to treat Very Fine steel swords as a TL4 technology, with Fine TL3. At TL2, making a fine sword is +5 CF, instead of +3CF, and a Very Fine swords being +22 CF. At TL3, Fine swords drop to +3CF, and Very Fine to +20CF.

Bronze swords cannot gain the bonus damage for quality.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

1 QA = 1 liter, 60 shekels = 1 MA.NA (pound) = 1/3600 talent. I think I used armour prices from Low Tech or from my playtest draft of Low Tech. We don't have prices for things like that before the high middle ages, but we do have lots of price data for everyday objects, including weapons, from the Bronze Age and the early Iron Age.

So I'm guessing that unleew otherwise specified 1L = $1GURPS?

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

So I'm guessing that unleew otherwise specified 1L = $1GURPS?

From the list he provides, it seems more like it's a 4:1 exchange. The basic startign wealth is $500, but only 1500L. But almost all the weapons are around 4x cost in L. So 4L=$1.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

So I'm guessing that unleew otherwise specified 1L = $1GURPS?

I think 1 G$ to 1 L was my rule of thumb. Bronze objects tend to be more expensive, except for swords which are already kind of pricey in the Basic Set. I decided that the GURPS starting wealth rules underestimated how much stuff people had relative to their incomes: the Bronze Age and Iron Age were times when one everyday garment could cost a month's income for a family. And my desire to give historically plausible prices was tempered by my knowledge that I was the only one in the group who cared about this stuff.