[DF] I can haz gunpowderz?

[Zed]

Its really a style choice. Do you want characters with guns? It doesn't matter the TL, any guns. Yes or no? Would you want scouts with some fantasy version of a musket instead of a bow? Or Ninja's with RPG equivalents? No? Then make guns/gunpowder just not work/not exist/not possible or gimp them so severely, they are a play thing collecting dust in wizard labs.

If you do want such things... its not hard to justify their existence. Even TL gets kinda fuzzy with magic involved:

Diviner to holy gods "How do I make x/y/z improvements to a gun?"
holy gods to Diviner "Shove off! You'll shoot yer eye out!"
Diviner to Asmodeous "Same question"
Asmodeous to Diviner "So glad you asked! This one's free! Share it with your friends! First things you do is rifle..." etc etc.

Just ask yourself if you want your game with guns or without and how far you want to take them. Dedicated gun-wielding classes? cinematic? realistic? Al great questions after you make a choice on that initial setting toggle/dial.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

There is no reason I can see to like Pi++ over Imp.

If that were the only difference, then there's little reason to use BP. However, BP weapons can give you excellent base damage values (particularly for lower ST characters), pi++ is no worse than imp unless you're going for a small number of specific hit locations, and any DF campaign worthy of the name will have plenty of zombies, demons, golems, and other monsters with IT(Homogenous), where neither imp nor pi will do you any good.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

If that were the only difference, then there's little reason to use BP. However, BP weapons can give you excellent base damage values (particularly for lower ST characters), pi++ is no worse than imp unless you're going for a small number of specific hit locations, and any DF campaign worthy of the name will have plenty of zombies, demons, golems, and other monsters with IT(Homogenous), where neither imp nor pi will do you any good.

Excellent for DF? Not that I have seen.

I mean when you get Barbarians or Ogres with Boomerangs or other sw damage thrown weapons and the damage codes just are not that remarkable. Hmm should SM+1 slings do Pi+ dammage?

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

Excellent for DF? Not that I have seen.

You regularly see PCs with missile attacks comparable to the flintlocks' 4d or the blunderbuss' 1d with a 1x9 RoF? How many points are you playing at? Even a flintlock pistol's 2d-1 is better than a pistol crossbow's thr+2 until your ST passes the mid-teens.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

You regularly see PCs with missile attacks comparable to the flintlocks' 4d or the blunderbuss' 1d with a 1x9 RoF? How many points are you playing at?

250. High ST characters with swing thrown weapons are in that range. OF course for the weight and trouble I don't figure muskets as important in a DF environment

Even a flintlock pistol's 2d-1 is better than a pistol crossbow's thr+2 until your ST passes the mid-teens.

And with the reload time just pass it off the the barbarian to cock with a goats foot, that would be comparable. Call it what a st 24 or so attack?

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

250. High ST characters with swing thrown weapons are in that range.

That's well and good for the ST 20+ barbarian and occasional knight or holy warrior, who are built to do exceptionally high damage. However, artificers, wizards, thieves, and all the other characters not built around very high ST values don't even get close, and even with knights and holy warriors, you have to work at it. For everybody who isn't at the upper end of the ST scale, gunpowder weapons do really, really good damage. Yes, they're fire-and-forget, but it's a pretty memorable single shot.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

That's well and good for the ST 20+ barbarian and occasional knight or holy warrior, who are built to do exceptionally high damage. However, artificers, wizards, thieves, and all the other characters not built around very high ST values don't even get close, and even with knights and holy warriors, you have to work at it. For everybody who isn't at the upper end of the ST scale, gunpowder weapons do really, really good damage. Yes, they're fire-and-forget, but it's a pretty memorable single shot.

Of course their proper comparison is probably not with boringly ordinary hand weapons but with similarly expensive Fine, Dwarven, magically enhanced ones. Or a scroll or wand of maxed out missile spells.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

Yes, they're fire-and-forget, but it's a pretty memorable single shot.

I suspect (and if I get some significant free time, I'll test it) that one can build a pretty effective arquebusier/musketeer/pistoleer for 250pts around Gunslinger and some of the options in Gun-Fu. Especially if such a character uses a brace of weapons.

EDIT: Compared to the Scout who really needs both Heroic Archer and Weapon Master to be really effective, the gun-guy can do most of the same tricks for less points since he only needs Gunslinger (Black Powder Weapons) or even just Gunslinger (Pistols) or (Muskets).

[mlangsdorf]

I've found that with Scouts, the difference between the Im 1d+3 non Weapon Master versus the 1d+5 with Weapon master really pales compared to whether or not the foe is vulnerable to eyeball shots. If the target is, then Weapon Master doesn't matter, and if they aren't, the extra 2 points of damage and +2 to hit when rapid shooting don't really matter.

[Kalzazz]

If he is allowed to take the 'guns dont count as encumbrance perk', he can be a walking gun rack, mostly ignoring reload times

And TL 4 guns are pretty cheap

Could draw and fire pistols every round with fastdraw, or muskets every other round