Considering the standard 5 Mile Hex for TFT

[Terquem]

Originally Posted by guymc

Trust me! ;-)

Seriously, all you need to worry about is the tactical map at 1 hex = 4 feet. Your other scales are just to show you progress through the labyrinth and overland. Tactical details won't appear on them.

Think of the tactical map as a drawing of the contents of one room of your house. When you expand to look at a floor plan, it doesn't matter where the things in that room are, or what scale they happen to be. When you look at a map of your neighborhood, it doesn't show where your dresser is placed.

Absolutely true - sometimes I get caught up in unnecessary details, it's my CDO

it's just like OCD only the letters are in the proper alphabetic order like they should be.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

Gygax's "Standard" wasn't kept. Observed more in the breach. As in, rejected by the industry. Not even within TSR, not even himself 5 years later. That's why you're way off base.

I never stated that it was "kept" - I said it was *the original standard* and *widely accepted* by the people who played D&D and subsequently purchased truck loads of product from Judges Guild (who also subscribed to the standard 5 Mile Hex and all of its levels of permutations for various sized areas to be mapped). So if I am "off-base", I sure have a whole bunch of company.

"Rejected by the industry"?

Are you sure the benefits of the 5-Mile Hex and it's permutations as standard were not passively *lost in transition and translation*, as opposed to a call to for the industry to: "reject" it?

But the *more important* question is:

Since you have, deemed me as "way off-base" (and everyone else who still embraces the functional logic and benefit of the 5-Mile Hex standard and it's permutations for mapping - where then, in your opinion, is the "correct base" ?

JK

[guymc]

Originally Posted by robertsconley

To be clear I only pointing out that you don't need so many different levels of mapping. The system of scales is fine and the fact they are all 3x multiples is fine as well.

Oh, I agree. A lot of the ones in between won't really be used much. But they need to be in my specs just so I have all the math worked out.

[Jim Kane]

Guy - I am trying to understand why a Labyrinth Scale Hex is equaling 9 feet across, as opposed to 12 feet across; as now one tactical-scale hex is considered to generally be 4 feet across (either as flat edge-to-flat edge, or, point-to-point is not indicated; so I presume it makes no difference for game purposes), and one labyrinth-scale hex which used to represent one Megahex at the tactical-scale, is not factoring at 4' x 3 = 12'.

Help please, thanks.

JK

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Guy - I am trying to understand why a Labyrinth Scale Hex is equaling 9 feet across, as opposed to 12 feet across; as now one tactical-scale hex is 4 feet across, and one labyrinth-scale hex which used to represent one Megahex at the tactical-scale, is not factoring at 4' x 3 = 12'.

Help please, thanks.

JK

Hi Jim,
Skarg and I talked about this before. 3 hexes x 4 feet per hex = 12 feet for three hexes across. He pointed out that because of the way Mh 'nest' that the distance between mega-hex centers is a bit less... 10.74 feet, by my measure.

This suggests that 12 foot Mh is more accurate, that 11 foot Mh would be more accurate, or even 10 foot Mh would be more accurate than the 9 foot ones that they suggested.

Rick

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

...He pointed out that because of the way Mh 'nest' that the distance between mega-hex centers is a bit less... 10.74 feet, by my measure.

Hi Rick, well, yes, but doesn't that happen when you measure from the center of one hex to a point-corner, then, across the shorter bottom flat of the neighboring hex, and then, to the next point-corner of the next neighbor hex - where you lose length whenever you measure along the short flats?

If that is the case, I guess I am simply not seeing the relationship between that inner geometry, and simply considering a megahex from outer far-edge to outer far-edge; as a gross outside measurement, exclusive of distance anomalies when stacked.

I will be interested to learn Guy's explanation so I can understand.

JK

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Hi Rick, ...

If that is the case, I guess I am simply not seeing the relationship between that inner geometry, and simply considering a megahex from outer far-edge to outer far-edge; as a gross outside measurement, exclusive of distance anomalies when stacked.

I will be interested to learn Guy's explanation so I can understand.

JK

Hi Jim,
I don't understand what you are asking. Do you want me to explain further? I was not measuring along the alternate hex grain, rather from the center hex of a mega hex to the center of an adjacent mega hex.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Hi Jim, I don't understand what you are asking. Do you want me to explain further?

Hi Rick, thank you, but no; I am happy to wait for Guy to answer my question to him; which I am confident that he will illuminate the situation, when he shares his reasoning of how and why he arrived at the value of 9.

Thanks just the same Rick.

JK

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Since you have, deemed me as "way off-base" (and everyone else who still embraces the functional logic and benefit of the 5-Mile Hex standard and it's permutations for mapping - where then, in your opinion, is the "correct base" ?

JK

The Way off Base was that 5 miles is an industry standard - which was part of your initial claim

Let's start with some actual, well supported data:
1: US Army marching pace is 3.4 mph - that presumes decent ground - and the typical march range is 2/3 the maximum unladen pace or less, as hard work (per TR350-29) is maintainable in heat con 1 for 4+ hours on a 40:20::work:rest cycle. We'll politely assume an 8-hour limit for non-forced-march. so... that gives us 18 miles.
2: Resurrection Pass Trail: "A local favorite, Resurrection Pass Trail offers day or multi-day backcountry hiking or biking adventures. A 39 mile trail that climbs from 500 to 2600 feet, visitors can reserve one or all of eight public use cabins along the route. " I, in poor condition at the time, have hiked this twice. Both times, 5.5 days. Vertical gain 0.4 miles, over a 39 mile stretch, with a 40lb pack, and no prior efforts to become physically fit, groups of teens routinely do so in 5.5 days. (For over 15 years, Rev. Hebert lead high school youth hikes along the trail. Start on trail about 9 am monday, arrive at the far end on saturday at lunch time.) Average is 7.7 miles per day.
3: 19 km full pack hike for US Army CIB: required qual is 3 hours. That's right at 4 miles per hour, sustained for 3 hours. This is a full on high speed hike in combat load. given 2 sections of this, it's possible to get a full 24 miles. It's not long term sustainable by most, but....
4: A typical marathon (~26.2 mi) speed record is about 2.5 hours; average time is 4.3-4.6 hours for the boston marathon in 2016. Most cannot keep that pace significantly longer - and it's done unladen. Still, some PC's are going to push this hard at times, and . So, we'll note 26 as a number to watch. We also will assume that it's high fitness.

Starting with the above numbers 7.7, 18, 12, 24, and 26.2...

3 looks best, 4 or 6 also very good, but any of these requires partial-hexes for best fit. 5 requires partials on ALL of them. It's mentally easy, but realism bad, because most people will not track partials.

Let's check some more records... these are peak physical condition for age, unladen.
100 mile (HMS): 13:11:40, 15:05:52, 14:31:11, 15:12:54, 15:02:30, 16:04:00
12 hr: 144,840 m, 128,747 m, 136,939 m, 133,881 m, 136,794 m, 127,138m

So, a 12 hour endurance runner unladen with water to grab can make around 125 km, or about 77 miles. Wow.
Peak 100 mile run speed is about 7.5 mph sustained... with record holders of various ages maintaining 6 to 7 mph. Unladen, excellent health.

Now, looking in ATP 3-21.18 figure 1-2, gives US Army troops daily ranges and speeds, at full combat load as...
Foot, road, 4 kph (~2.5 mph), and 2.4 kmh (~1.5 mph) overland, for 20-32 km per day, with 8 hours on the move. (so ~12.5 to ~19.9 miles)

call it 12 and 20. Again 4 miles per hex is better suited for fit.

Based upon the performance data, 4 miles really is the best fit with fewest partial hexes for the data.

One last datapoint of note: Town, village, and hamlet separations: typically 1-2 miles apart. I've done some prior research (see my Pendragon alternate economics at aramis.hostman.us) and come up with about 1-3 miles apart; I recommended mapping at 1 mile squares.

A town should have villages surrounding it, and have a mile or so surrounding it under cultivation, plus another ring of 4-8 villages at 1-3 miles away...

4 miles to a hex gives you a pretty good town-in-a-hex, including the surrounding villages. It puts a notable city filling much of the hex, and cultivating half of the neighboring ones, with surrounding towns at 4 or 8 miles - note that 8 miles is a steady hiking speed of 1 mph for 8 hours; stopping for lunch, thats doable in most latitudes in daylight overland, in 6 or so by road, without martial discipline.

My personal preference is 8 for local areas, 24 for big scale maps, because it's an average 1 per day and 1 per 3 days for peasants, and it's the Cyclopedia and Gazateer scale-set, but 4 miles is a better math overall.

So, I'd say, looking at the numbers, 4 miles is probably the best fit balance between large enough for low detail, small enough to be avoiding fractionals for best fit numbers. 2 is better still for rounding, and 3 is a reasonable compromise.

So, let's examine some of the others..
D&D BX/BECMI/Cyclopedia/Gazetteer: 6, 8, 24. 6 is similar to 5 in that the rounding is problematic - actual hikers in good condition make some 12 miles a day, the military expects 19 miles a day on road, 12.4 off), and peak performance non-obsessives at 24 or so... so it's 2, 3, or 4 six mile hexes per day. For 8 mile, 1.5 to 2.5 per day - not good. For 24, 2-3 days per hex.

AD&D 1E: 20 and 4 - the 4 matches my numbers above. The 20 is fractions needed.

OED&D - says both 5 mile hexes, and to use Outdoor survival, which specifies 5 km hexes. (Wouldn't be the only unit-ignorance on Gygax's case... his confusion of prices in medieval shillings in various sources in the Lake Geneva public library - I once borrowed them via ILL - for the silver PoE, which was about 0.9 troy ounce, or 10.8/lbt - which is probably, but not provably, where Gygax came up with 10/lb - but they are about 13.125 to the larger Lb av.)

TOR uses fractions of a hex, but also measures legs of travel more than hexes per day. As in, how many hexes of this terrain, find total days, divide days by season factor, make that many encounter/fatigue checks. Works fine, but many hate the mathiness, and the fatigue is 3-5 days per roll; that's a step out in granularty that most won't appreciate if they are actually expecting a hexcrawl. (TOR hides the hexes from the players - only the GM's maps have the hexes. Also, the terrain and threat level regions do NOT constrain to the hex-grid. ) Winds up way too mathy for many.

So, I'd really suggest 4 miles per hex for both verisimilitude balanced to mapping scale.


http://www.tradoc.army.mil/tpubs/regs/tr350-29.pdf
https://www.verywellfit.com/what-is-...rathon-2911426
https://www.usatf.org/statistics/rec...oup=&sport=LDR
https://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/chug...a/?recid=13398
https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_p...INAL%20WEB.pdf
http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/blueroom/demog.htm

For reference, my personal best on a 2 mile run was 16:08... 2 seconds under the failure bar at Ft. Dix in 1987. Average performance in my company was around 14 min. And for me, that 2 miles was the hardest run I've ever succeeded at; After that, my next 2 mile run was 16:18... and in both cases, I physically was incapable of even walking for more than a few dozen yards following - it was literally the edge of my performance envelope. When I say I was out of shape, I mean it. Still, I was able to hike 39 miles at about 7 miles per day, for a week.

[ak_aramis]

(continued)

Oh, and just for reference: ITL has maps in the following scales per hex:
page 18:

MAPPING. Map blanks are provided for copying. You will
need multiple copies, so don't write on your master copies.
The map scale is one hex equals 4 meters. One labyrinth hex
is equal to a Melee scale megahex grouping of seven 1 1/3
meter hexes.

Page 23:

The scale on the village map is one increment up from the
labyrinth maps. Just as one hex on the labyrinth map represents
one megahex (7 hexes) on the Melee tunnel segments,
one hex on the village map represents one mega-megahex (13
hexes) on the labyrinth map. A Melee tunnel hex is about a
meter across. A megahex (that is, a labyrinth map hex) represents
about 4 meters. A hex on the village map is 20 meters
across.

page 24:

The map scale for your large outdoor maps may be whatever
you wish. It is suggested that you keep to one of the hexsizes
reached by multiplying the village-map scale by 5. Since
the village-map hexes represent 20 meters, you could work on
a scale of 100 meters, 500 meters, 2.5 km, 12.5 km, 62.5 (or
simply 60) km, 312.5 (or simply 300) km, et cetera. If you
keep to one of these scales, your maps will be compatible with
those produced by Metagaming, and by other players, for THE
FANTASY TRIP.
The scale for the province map shown and key is 12.5 km
per hex, measured from side to side.

page 70:

SCALE
Each hex on this map measures 20 meters from side to side,
and is equivalent to 19 hexes on the labyrinth map, or 19
megahexes using the combat scale.

page 72:

MAP SCALE
Each hex on this map measures 12.5 kilometers from side
to side.
Where a route (like the rivers on this map) follows hex-sides
instead of cutting through hexes, count two hex-sides as
equal to one hex.

I'm assuming Guy's quotes are from the new draft, because nothing in the original is in English Traditional Measure...
Punching in the scales on page 24 to a unit converter app (to it's precision limit)...
100m = 109.3 yds = 0.062137119 mi = 0.05399568 nm
500m = 546.80665 yds = 0.3106856 mi = 0.2699784 nm
2500m = 2,734.0332 yd = 1.553428 mi = 1.349892 nm
62500m = 38.8357 mi = 33.7473 nm
60km = 37.282272 mi = 32.397408 nm
312.5 km = 194.1785 mi = 168.7365 nm
300km = 186.41136 mi = 161.98704 nm

1.5 miles would be a better fit overall... but that going to 38 is... well, major issues with travel in fractional hexes per day.