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Old 08-03-2018, 03:14 PM   #11
red2
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: ST13, DX11 or ST11, DX13 ???

Just hacking away. I don't think I have ever played with a shield rush. Might have to try that
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Old 08-03-2018, 03:46 PM   #12
Jim Kane
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Default Re: ST13, DX11 or ST11, DX13 ???

Our friend Shostak points out a critical element.

Not every fight is the equivalent of a fencing contest between two gentlemen Dandy's armed the foil. Some fighters Shield Rush (often with a Spiked Shield), and others often will jump an opponent when they are losing, and eliminate the advantage by forcing the contest to the ground in HTH.

And, a fight can suddenly go the other way very quickly if the dice start to streak towards towards the ends of the bell curve.

JK
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Old 08-03-2018, 04:29 PM   #13
Nils_Lindeberg
 
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Default Re: ST13, DX11 or ST11, DX13 ???

I also did something very similar. A Monte Carlo testing of different stats. I included almost all the options but not Pole Weapons. Had house rules for that anyways so I excluded them. The difference is that I mostly put the top contenders against each other.

My result was that TFT is very well balanced over all. And the winner was the 12/12 Broadsword, small shield character. Not against everyone, but against most of my other top contenders.

But I admit, spears might have changed this a lot.

Did the java app take into account an initial Defense action against spear users? I always wondered if that was worth it? It also seems a little strange that ST16 characters uses Battleax and not Great Sword?

Last edited by Nils_Lindeberg; 08-03-2018 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 08-03-2018, 05:04 PM   #14
Anthony
 
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Default Re: ST13, DX11 or ST11, DX13 ???

If you want average damage, it's going to depend on both your armor and your target's armor. The table below shows the average results, with the superior option in bold, for 0-9 target armor and 0-5 DX penalty.
Code:
Armor              0     1     2     3     4     5     6     7     8     9
AdjDX 13, Dam 2-1  5.17  4.33  3.51  2.74  2.04  1.43  0.94  0.58  0.34  0.19
AdjDX 11, Dam 2+1  5.19  4.56  3.94  3.31  2.70  2.13  1.60  1.15  0.78  0.51
DX penalty 1
AdjDX 12, Dam 2-1  4.58  3.84  3.12  2.44  1.82  1.28  0.84  0.53  0.31  0.18
AdjDX 10, Dam 2+1  4.19  3.69  3.19  2.69  2.20  1.74  1.32  0.95  0.65  0.44
DX penalty 2
AdjDX 11, Dam 2-1  3.89  3.26  2.66  2.08  1.56  1.10  0.73  0.46  0.28  0.16
AdjDX  9, Dam 2+1  3.19  2.81  2.44  2.06  1.70  1.35  1.03  0.76  0.53  0.37
DX penalty 3
AdjDX 10, Dam 2-1  3.14  2.64  2.15  1.69  1.27  0.91  0.61  0.39  0.24  0.15
AdjDX  8, Dam 2+1  2.26  2.00  1.74  1.48  1.23  0.99  0.77  0.58  0.42  0.30
DX penalty 4
AdjDX  9, Dam 2-1  2.39  2.01  1.65  1.30  0.99  0.71  0.49  0.32  0.21  0.14
AdjDX  7, Dam 2+1  1.48  1.32  1.16  1.00  0.84  0.69  0.55  0.43  0.33  0.25
DX penalty 5
AdjDX  8, Dam 2-1  1.69  1.44  1.18  0.94  0.73  0.53  0.38  0.26  0.18  0.12
AdjDX  6, Dam 2+1  0.93  0.83  0.74  0.65  0.56  0.47  0.39  0.32  0.26  0.21
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Old 08-03-2018, 05:22 PM   #15
Skarg
 
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Default Re: ST13, DX11 or ST11, DX13 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
Did the java app take into account an initial Defense action against spear users? I always wondered if that was worth it? It also seems a little strange that ST16 characters uses Battleax and not Great Sword?
He ran it with and without Defending versus charge. IIRC it did help a bit to defend when being charged.

He was thinking of it as a test of Melee, not Advanced Melee, so it did not include Great Swords, Bastard Swords, Great Hammers, etc - only the weapons in Melee.

The ST 13 vs ST 11 tests will also be affected by when you allow a figure to stand up. If you let them stand up during Movement (Basic Melee) then the ST 13 won't get a +4 to finish off ST 11 after a knockdown, but if using Advanced Melee, he will.
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Old 08-03-2018, 08:30 PM   #16
Kirk
 
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Default Re: ST13, DX11 or ST11, DX13 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
The ST 13 vs ST 11 tests will also be affected by when you allow a figure to stand up. If you let them stand up during Movement (Basic Melee) then the ST 13 won't get a +4 to finish off ST 11 after a knockdown, but if using Advanced Melee, he will.
Yep, when one can stand will affect the game. We play that it fundamentally consumes your next option in the next turn if you choose to do so, which you don't have to do. If you are knocked down before you can act, I do believe the rules we have say that you cannot act in that turn.

I do hope some good thought goes into this by SJ even with some playtesting to see what falls out best.
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Old 08-04-2018, 11:53 AM   #17
GranitePenguin
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Default Re: ST13, DX11 or ST11, DX13 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
+1 Chris' comment.

Always test a theory:
  • In the isolation of the Melee Arena, AND
  • Down in the Labyrinth...where it *counts*

It's the equivalent of Laboratory Testing AND Field Testing for TFT.

JK
Sounds like the old adage about Theory and Practice...

In Theory, they are the same; in Practice, they are different. :-)
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Old 08-20-2018, 02:50 AM   #18
Nils_Lindeberg
 
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Default Re: ST13, DX11 or ST11, DX13 ???

Here is the link to my Simulation document. I added a tab for 11/13 vs 13/11 and ran 1000 simulations.

Google docs link

About a 2% lead for the 2-H spear. In a dungeon setting that would probably be negated by the bigger problems of a 3-hex charge and multiple enemies that can engage and stop multiple charges after a knock down or forced retreat.

This is with the KS suggested rule set.
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Old 08-20-2018, 06:53 AM   #19
tbeard1999
 
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Default Re: ST13, DX11 or ST11, DX13 ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
If you want average damage, it's going to depend on both your armor and your target's armor. The table below shows the average results, with the superior option in bold, for 0-9 target armor and 0-5 DX penalty.
Code:
Armor              0     1     2     3     4     5     6     7     8     9
AdjDX 13, Dam 2-1  5.17  4.33  3.51  2.74  2.04  1.43  0.94  0.58  0.34  0.19
AdjDX 11, Dam 2+1  5.19  4.56  3.94  3.31  2.70  2.13  1.60  1.15  0.78  0.51
DX penalty 1
AdjDX 12, Dam 2-1  4.58  3.84  3.12  2.44  1.82  1.28  0.84  0.53  0.31  0.18
AdjDX 10, Dam 2+1  4.19  3.69  3.19  2.69  2.20  1.74  1.32  0.95  0.65  0.44
DX penalty 2
AdjDX 11, Dam 2-1  3.89  3.26  2.66  2.08  1.56  1.10  0.73  0.46  0.28  0.16
AdjDX  9, Dam 2+1  3.19  2.81  2.44  2.06  1.70  1.35  1.03  0.76  0.53  0.37
DX penalty 3
AdjDX 10, Dam 2-1  3.14  2.64  2.15  1.69  1.27  0.91  0.61  0.39  0.24  0.15
AdjDX  8, Dam 2+1  2.26  2.00  1.74  1.48  1.23  0.99  0.77  0.58  0.42  0.30
DX penalty 4
AdjDX  9, Dam 2-1  2.39  2.01  1.65  1.30  0.99  0.71  0.49  0.32  0.21  0.14
AdjDX  7, Dam 2+1  1.48  1.32  1.16  1.00  0.84  0.69  0.55  0.43  0.33  0.25
DX penalty 5
AdjDX  8, Dam 2-1  1.69  1.44  1.18  0.94  0.73  0.53  0.38  0.26  0.18  0.12
AdjDX  6, Dam 2+1  0.93  0.83  0.74  0.65  0.56  0.47  0.39  0.32  0.26  0.21
Interesting. I wonder how significant the effect of striking first would be?
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